FU VS W&M GAME THREAD

[FUTex]

Has to be the worst coached game I have seen in the CCH era. They need ti get much better.

What are your issues with coaching?

I realize you are going to complain about anything. You can't complain about the pass defense today, so what did the coaches do that bothered you so badly?

Did you watch the game? Terrible subbing all night. To start after going up 14-0, 40 and 0 go to the bench and they go right down and score. I realize 0 and 40 can’t play every down, but they are on the bench too much. All of their points and most of the yardage came with those 2 on the bench including the last td. Chappell not in the game on third down late with game on the line, Trying a fg late on 4th and one at their 4. Not playing to win. Kicking a fg with 6 to go knowing there is a good chance they would not get the ball back. Getting great field position with 10 to go and try the bomb which is intercepted. Bad, really bad. 2nd and 10, we just waist a down and run for 2 yds. Calling 3 and outs on 3rd down when you need 8. Bad play calling all night. Coaches had a bad night, hopefully they will get better.

What does "Calling 3 and outs on 3rd down when you need 8" mean?

I thought the Paladins did fairly well. Sure, there were some minor errors here and there, but overall they did well.

[The Jackal]

if we could just stop the run...amazing

I WAS positive. Then I heard - just got on radio - they had 384 yards rushing and we had EIGHTY EIGHTY. Wow. When is the last time a team had THREE HUNDRED MORE rushing yards than us??

And I think Harris may be out more weeks

My view of our rushing game is that Hicks and Robinson are better suited to a power scheme. They, like Abrams, Roberto, Wynn, etc., were not really recruited for this zone scheme in Roper's offense. They do better getting north south.

Later in the game, and on the touchdown runs, we started to run them between the tackles. They started to have more success.

I'm not sure we expected Furman to struggle running the ball. Passing game is fine. Protection is fine. We've just gotta start getting some yards on the ground.

As someone who has no idea what they are talking about:

I always loved the big bruiser running backs. My love of football developed watching Felton and I am never a fan of getting away from that style of football.

Secondly, I don't know how this offense is supposed to work but I imagine most competent running backs can get reliable yardage regardless of the offense. They might be better suited for one offense or another but I still expect yardage. Our rushing yardage was mediocre at best which makes me suspect that it's either the offensive line (were they recruited for this style of offense?) or players are having trouble executing the plays called. Given the number of penalties I don't think any of us would be surprised if that sloppiness continued into execution.

I think both Furman and W&M have a lot to be unhappy about how this game went. I'm not surprised given our youth that their are slip ups in the passing game, both offensively and defensively. I am surprised that offensively we can't seem to have a competent running game. Given our players, coaches, experience, etc. an average rushing attack *should* be doable.

It's hard to pinpoint the issue just watching the games. And while I have no idea what the actual issue is, this is sort of a working theory of mine:

Justin Roper's hire was announced in January 2022. At that time, Furman had already signed one running back commit - Jayquan Smith (who, of course, isn't playing this year). That 2022 roster already had a bunch of running backs (Thomas, Abrams, Hicks, Robinson, Roberto, etc.)

Pre-Roper, our running back targets seemed to fit the prototype mold to run multi-back system under George Quarles. Most recruits were 6'0 and 190+.

During that time, we heavily featured two backs in the game. Most of the RB targets in those days were all big physical runners. We were more of a downhill team, frequently with a lead blocking back.

We did not take a running back in the 2023 class. I am assuming that was because we already had a bunch or guys at that position (Abrams, Roberto, Smith, Hick, Robinson, etc.)

Roper is a pure spread guy. He played at Oregon. A staple of the Oregon offense is the outside zone read run play. That style of offense prefers shorter, shiftier backs that can scoot through holes and cut up field.

Currently, you see Furman really spreading teams out. We are frequently using four or five receivers on the field at times. That was unthinkable to imagine for former Furman teams. I almost never see us use two backs at the same time. In fact, when we need a fullback, we use a defensive lineman.

Furman appears to be targeting those smaller, shiftier backs. Gavin Hall, at 5'10 188, is a shorter quicker player. Next year's commit, CJ Nettles, is similar - listed at 5'8 160. These guys are more akin to what we saw from William & Mary tonight and less what we've traditionally seen from Furman.

I'm just wondering if the problem isn't some that we are trying to run a bunch of east/west with personnel better suited to run north/south.

[gofurman]

if we could just stop the run...amazing

I WAS positive. Then I heard - just got on radio - they had 384 yards rushing and we had EIGHTY EIGHTY. Wow. When is the last time a team had THREE HUNDRED MORE rushing yards than us??

And I think Harris may be out more weeks

My view of our rushing game is that Hicks and Robinson are better suited to a power scheme. They, like Abrams, Roberto, Wynn, etc., were not really recruited for this zone scheme in Roper's offense. They do better getting north south.

Later in the game, and on the touchdown runs, we started to run them between the tackles. They started to have more success.

I'm not sure we expected Furman to struggle running the ball. Passing game is fine. Protection is fine. We've just gotta start getting some yards on the ground.

As someone who has no idea what they are talking about:

I always loved the big bruiser running backs. My love of football developed watching Felton and I am never a fan of getting away from that style of football.

Secondly, I don't know how this offense is supposed to work but I imagine most competent running backs can get reliable yardage regardless of the offense. They might be better suited for one offense or another but I still expect yardage. Our rushing yardage was mediocre at best which makes me suspect that it's either the offensive line (were they recruited for this style of offense?) or players are having trouble executing the plays called. Given the number of penalties I don't think any of us would be surprised if that sloppiness continued into execution.

I think both Furman and W&M have a lot to be unhappy about how this game went. I'm not surprised given our youth that their are slip ups in the passing game, both offensively and defensively. I am surprised that offensively we can't seem to have a competent running game. Given our players, coaches, experience, etc. an average rushing attack *should* be doable.

It's hard to pinpoint the issue just watching the games. And while I have no idea what the actual issue is, this is sort of a working theory of mine:

Justin Roper's hire was announced in January 2022. At that time, Furman had already signed one running back commit - Jayquan Smith (who, of course, isn't playing this year). That 2022 roster already had a bunch of running backs (Thomas, Abrams, Hicks, Robinson, Roberto, etc.)

Pre-Roper, our running back targets seemed to fit the prototype mold to run multi-back system under George Quarles. Most recruits were 6'0 and 190+.

During that time, we heavily featured two backs in the game. Most of the RB targets in those days were all big physical runners. We were more of a downhill team, frequently with a lead blocking back.

We did not take a running back in the 2023 class. I am assuming that was because we already had a bunch or guys at that position (Abrams, Roberto, Smith, Hick, Robinson, etc.)

Roper is a pure spread guy. He played at Oregon. A staple of the Oregon offense is the outside zone read run play. That style of offense prefers shorter, shiftier backs that can scoot through holes and cut up field.

Currently, you see Furman really spreading teams out. We are frequently using four or five receivers on the field at times. That was unthinkable to imagine for former Furman teams. I almost never see us use two backs at the same time. In fact, when we need a fullback, we use a defensive lineman.

Furman appears to be targeting those smaller, shiftier backs. Gavin Hall, at 5'10 188, is a shorter quicker player. Next year's commit, CJ Nettles, is similar - listed at 5'8 160. These guys are more akin to what we saw from William & Mary tonight and less what we've traditionally seen from Furman.

I'm just wondering if the problem isn't some that we are trying to run a bunch of east/west with personnel better suited to run north/south.

Jackal, I like your theory. I’m beginning to move towards it the more I see and think about it.

HOWEVER, as we - I think you have said likewise. know - a good coach adapts his plays TO HIS PLAYERS. he doesn’t try to adapt his players to plays they just can’t run/fit.

It’s an age old debate. You don’t make option guys run an air raid just bc a new coach came in. . You start recruiting for your new offense …. but let the option guys finish out the year running option plays. I oversimplify but we get the point.

If these guys just can’t get running yards on these plays either switch plays or put Gavin Hall in more. Just don’t be insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result

[AllTimeFU]

I completely agree. The other puzzle piece is Gavin was running behind a mixture of the OL1 and OL2. More of the same is insanity.

[gofurman]

I completely agree. The other puzzle piece is Gavin was running behind a mixture of the OL1 and OL2. More of the same is insanity.

Thanks AllTimeFU ! Yeah, I’m trying to be positive. I know it’s gonna be bumpy. I get it. Gonna be some frustrations.

Hey pass D apparently was STRONG. GREAT !

I know of the penalties. . But I have faith those will get cleared up. We are consistently a low penalty team
Bad night in FGs. Sure they will work those 30 yard FGs HARD. I would rather have a lock down 33 yard guy than an iffy medium range guy who can hit the long one. I’m SURE they will be kicking a bunch of 30-40 yard FGs this week.

But don’t do the same thing for same result. It’s the rushing I’m still concerned with.

I literally don’t know when some OUTGAINED us by 300 yards rushing. 384 to 80 or so. Can anyone name the last team to OUTGAIN us by 300 yards rushing ? . I can’t. Not Clemson recently. Not USC. that’s just hard to get my head around. Anyone ?

Anyway, right now I would take a good 3+ yard average per rush for 150 yards. Just enough to keep opponents honest.
If we get to game 7 or so and still can’t get 150 yards rushing we probably need to change schemes

[The Jackal]

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Inside the 10, Furman puts two RBs on the field. This is just a power play - hat on a hat.

I'm not weighing in on whether something is right or wrong or good or bad. I don't really have an answer for the issues with the run game. i don't necessarily pin it on the offensive line, though. From what I could tell, last night Hedden was kept pretty clean and in some instances had all day to throw. I thought they did a good job.

[gman84]

I like this team and this coaching staff. 31 of the 60 players who travelled were either red shirt or true freshman. This is the flip side of last year and knowledgeable fans understand this.
This is a good group of talent and hung in there against a very senior team and fought to the end.
The negatoids who post here are always the same people.

Yep. I made sure we had a thread on preseason guess at record. I’ve got to quit being so positive. I said 8-4




Couldn’t listen. As I’ve stated.
Honest question.

Which areas did we improve?

Who played well.

Yeah I saw the rushing stats and missed short FGs and PENALTIES.

I appreciate the fact that you admitted you did not see the game. I did not and therefore will not comment. I hope your 8-4 happens! It’s still possible.

[Bootie]

During halftime I changed inputs on the TV to watch other games and, unbeknownst to me, the Flo stream would apparently pause itself. So I watched 15 minutes of another game, switched back over to the flo football feed and they were still at halftime. I did this a few more times and obviously missed half of the third quarter
Idiot.

[The Jackal]

I also do not think it is necessarily fair to say the offense struggled. We put up 350 yards, scored 24 points (and left at least 6 on the field in missed kicks). It wasn't a bad night.

As billed before the season, we are probably more explosive in the "big play" department than we've been in a long time. Where we are struggling is sort of the areas Furman has traditionally done well - moving methodically down the field and picking up first downs, particularly on the ground. Hedden looks better every game.

In terms of positive trends, Hedden threw for 264 yards last night on the road against a top 15 team. The four leading Furman receivers were all freshmen and sophomores. Another true freshman, Hester, got the start at WR. Arguably our best playmaker, Joshua Harris, did not even suit up.

One big takeaway was the TE play. W&M really didn't seem to have an answer for Brock Chappell. They couldn't out muscle him for the football. We were also introduced to true freshman Jackson Pryor, who gave Furman another big target in the passing game.

Our offensive line held up well. W&M was credited with two sacks for 3 yards.

[Furmanoid]

if we could just stop the run...amazing

I WAS positive. Then I heard - just got on radio - they had 384 yards rushing and we had EIGHTY EIGHTY. Wow. When is the last time a team had THREE HUNDRED MORE rushing yards than us??

And I think Harris may be out more weeks

My view of our rushing game is that Hicks and Robinson are better suited to a power scheme. They, like Abrams, Roberto, Wynn, etc., were not really recruited for this zone scheme in Roper's offense. They do better getting north south.

Later in the game, and on the touchdown runs, we started to run them between the tackles. They started to have more success.

I'm not sure we expected Furman to struggle running the ball. Passing game is fine. Protection is fine. We've just gotta start getting some yards on the ground.

As someone who has no idea what they are talking about:

I always loved the big bruiser running backs. My love of football developed watching Felton and I am never a fan of getting away from that style of football.

Secondly, I don't know how this offense is supposed to work but I imagine most competent running backs can get reliable yardage regardless of the offense. They might be better suited for one offense or another but I still expect yardage. Our rushing yardage was mediocre at best which makes me suspect that it's either the offensive line (were they recruited for this style of offense?) or players are having trouble executing the plays called. Given the number of penalties I don't think any of us would be surprised if that sloppiness continued into execution.

I think both Furman and W&M have a lot to be unhappy about how this game went. I'm not surprised given our youth that their are slip ups in the passing game, both offensively and defensively. I am surprised that offensively we can't seem to have a competent running game. Given our players, coaches, experience, etc. an average rushing attack *should* be doable.

It's hard to pinpoint the issue just watching the games. And while I have no idea what the actual issue is, this is sort of a working theory of mine:

Justin Roper's hire was announced in January 2022. At that time, Furman had already signed one running back commit - Jayquan Smith (who, of course, isn't playing this year). That 2022 roster already had a bunch of running backs (Thomas, Abrams, Hicks, Robinson, Roberto, etc.)

Pre-Roper, our running back targets seemed to fit the prototype mold to run multi-back system under George Quarles. Most recruits were 6'0 and 190+.

During that time, we heavily featured two backs in the game. Most of the RB targets in those days were all big physical runners. We were more of a downhill team, frequently with a lead blocking back.

We did not take a running back in the 2023 class. I am assuming that was because we already had a bunch or guys at that position (Abrams, Roberto, Smith, Hick, Robinson, etc.)

Roper is a pure spread guy. He played at Oregon. A staple of the Oregon offense is the outside zone read run play. That style of offense prefers shorter, shiftier backs that can scoot through holes and cut up field.

Currently, you see Furman really spreading teams out. We are frequently using four or five receivers on the field at times. That was unthinkable to imagine for former Furman teams. I almost never see us use two backs at the same time. In fact, when we need a fullback, we use a defensive lineman.

Furman appears to be targeting those smaller, shiftier backs. Gavin Hall, at 5'10 188, is a shorter quicker player. Next year's commit, CJ Nettles, is similar - listed at 5'8 160. These guys are more akin to what we saw from William & Mary tonight and less what we've traditionally seen from Furman.

I'm just wondering if the problem isn't some that we are trying to run a bunch of east/west with personnel better suited to run north/south.

Not sure anybody wants all of their backs to be tiny. There are always games/situations where you have to be able to run n-s. And you have to be able to survive a terrible QB some years. Need options. I might not read too much into the two guys coming in.

I didn’t see it so let me ask you to analyze this. How does a shotgun snap look? To optimize a spread, that little detail is important. If the QB gets it fast and turns fast, those e-w passes are much harder to defend. You’re always late.

And on that running back size thing. I always thought it would make sense to put bruisers out wide, get the ball out fast and watch the little cb’s try to tackle them.

[FUBeAR]

if we could just stop the run...amazing

I WAS positive. Then I heard - just got on radio - they had 384 yards rushing and we had EIGHTY EIGHTY. Wow. When is the last time a team had THREE HUNDRED MORE rushing yards than us??

And I think Harris may be out more weeks

My view of our rushing game is that Hicks and Robinson are better suited to a power scheme. They, like Abrams, Roberto, Wynn, etc., were not really recruited for this zone scheme in Roper's offense. They do better getting north south.

Later in the game, and on the touchdown runs, we started to run them between the tackles. They started to have more success.

I'm not sure we expected Furman to struggle running the ball. Passing game is fine. Protection is fine. We've just gotta start getting some yards on the ground.

Jackal thanks. Appreciate the help analysis sir

Bronson Yoder is one of the best backs in the FCS. They have a big veteran offensive line headlined by an NFL prospect. He was going to get his yards.

The guy we struggled with was the QB. He reminded me of Tyrie Adams, the QB for Western Carolina a few seasons back - a guy you simply could not afford to let get out of the pocket.

At bottom, W&M is where we were last year. They are loaded with veterans and have some excellent players on offense. They were just a bit too much for us tonight. We had our shots, just didn't finish.

Just catching up…wasn’t able to watch or listen to game, so no real comments other than to confirm your Tyrie Adams (who became a Starting QB in the CFL) comparison. Exactly what FUBeAR told peeps after he watched 1 series of W&M @ Woffy. KNEW he was gonna be a PROBLEM as noted in FUBeAR’s Pre-game Prediculation…and FUBeAR wasn’t talking about his ARM.

See now that he avg’d almost 12 yards per non-sack rushing attempts. As we saw last season with our O - a good RB with a QB who can (and will) tote it really well and also chunk it pretty good is a PROBLEM for any Defense.

Haven’t watched much of Samford either, but their QB is running about 12x/game @ about 6 yds per non-sack rushing attempt. Don’t think that 12x attempts is typical for the Hatch Attack - so, based on the stats FUBeAR has seen and the comments of game-viewers here (and on Samford’s board)…seems fairly likely we gonna Sammy’s QB hoofin’ it a great many times next week. Coach Vaughn will have our guys prepared.

[jesse174]

Offense has gotten much better so I see our problems mostly on defense and not being able to stop the run..that is why we lost. We couldn't stop the QB even when we knew he was going to run the ball. We will work on this and improve...overall a much improved team.

[The Jackal]

if we could just stop the run...amazing

I WAS positive. Then I heard - just got on radio - they had 384 yards rushing and we had EIGHTY EIGHTY. Wow. When is the last time a team had THREE HUNDRED MORE rushing yards than us??

And I think Harris may be out more weeks

My view of our rushing game is that Hicks and Robinson are better suited to a power scheme. They, like Abrams, Roberto, Wynn, etc., were not really recruited for this zone scheme in Roper's offense. They do better getting north south.

Later in the game, and on the touchdown runs, we started to run them between the tackles. They started to have more success.

I'm not sure we expected Furman to struggle running the ball. Passing game is fine. Protection is fine. We've just gotta start getting some yards on the ground.

As someone who has no idea what they are talking about:

I always loved the big bruiser running backs. My love of football developed watching Felton and I am never a fan of getting away from that style of football.

Secondly, I don't know how this offense is supposed to work but I imagine most competent running backs can get reliable yardage regardless of the offense. They might be better suited for one offense or another but I still expect yardage. Our rushing yardage was mediocre at best which makes me suspect that it's either the offensive line (were they recruited for this style of offense?) or players are having trouble executing the plays called. Given the number of penalties I don't think any of us would be surprised if that sloppiness continued into execution.

I think both Furman and W&M have a lot to be unhappy about how this game went. I'm not surprised given our youth that their are slip ups in the passing game, both offensively and defensively. I am surprised that offensively we can't seem to have a competent running game. Given our players, coaches, experience, etc. an average rushing attack *should* be doable.

It's hard to pinpoint the issue just watching the games. And while I have no idea what the actual issue is, this is sort of a working theory of mine:

Justin Roper's hire was announced in January 2022. At that time, Furman had already signed one running back commit - Jayquan Smith (who, of course, isn't playing this year). That 2022 roster already had a bunch of running backs (Thomas, Abrams, Hicks, Robinson, Roberto, etc.)

Pre-Roper, our running back targets seemed to fit the prototype mold to run multi-back system under George Quarles. Most recruits were 6'0 and 190+.

During that time, we heavily featured two backs in the game. Most of the RB targets in those days were all big physical runners. We were more of a downhill team, frequently with a lead blocking back.

We did not take a running back in the 2023 class. I am assuming that was because we already had a bunch or guys at that position (Abrams, Roberto, Smith, Hick, Robinson, etc.)

Roper is a pure spread guy. He played at Oregon. A staple of the Oregon offense is the outside zone read run play. That style of offense prefers shorter, shiftier backs that can scoot through holes and cut up field.

Currently, you see Furman really spreading teams out. We are frequently using four or five receivers on the field at times. That was unthinkable to imagine for former Furman teams. I almost never see us use two backs at the same time. In fact, when we need a fullback, we use a defensive lineman.

Furman appears to be targeting those smaller, shiftier backs. Gavin Hall, at 5'10 188, is a shorter quicker player. Next year's commit, CJ Nettles, is similar - listed at 5'8 160. These guys are more akin to what we saw from William & Mary tonight and less what we've traditionally seen from Furman.

I'm just wondering if the problem isn't some that we are trying to run a bunch of east/west with personnel better suited to run north/south.

Not sure anybody wants all of their backs to be tiny. There are always games/situations where you have to be able to run n-s. And you have to be able to survive a terrible QB some years. Need options. I might not read too much into the two guys coming in.

I didn’t see it so let me ask you to analyze this. How does a shotgun snap look? To optimize a spread, that little detail is important. If the QB gets it fast and turns fast, those e-w passes are much harder to defend. You’re always late.

And on that running back size thing. I always thought it would make sense to put bruisers out wide, get the ball out fast and watch the little cb’s try to tackle them.

I do not think it is so much about being "tiny" as it is guys having that quick burst and change of direction.

Using W&M as an example, a lot of their rush yards were after their backs just tucked in behind the offensive line and cut back against the flow of the defense. Fast enough to get to the hole, quick enough to accelerate through it, and shifty enough to keep working back against the defense to find open space.

Not suggesting this is necessarily the model, but W&M's two backs are 5'11 and 5'8. Yoder is by no means "tiny" at 205lbs.

I believe most (all?) of the pre-Roper running backs on Furman's roster are in the neighborhood of 210+ The post-Roper RBs on Furman's roster (Hall, Everhardt, Garvin-Mingo, and now Nettles) are all 5'10 or shorter and under 190. I do not believe that is coincidental.

[The Jackal]

I know we get a little tired of the tunnel screens by Furman, but this is one of the reasons we do them. Pryor brought back across the formation in motion and everything about this looks like a quick pass to Ethan Harris. Pryor dips his shoulder and runs up the sideline.

I love some of the details on that play. Pryor sells the block before turning up field. Harris turns ready to catch a pass that was never coming. You can see Hedden going through his progressions. Watch too how utterly befuddled the W&M linebacker is. He looks completely convinced he's sniffed out the play only to realize that his man is now 5 yards behind him.

The four receivers on that play at a sophomore, two true freshmen, and a junior. Remember, this is game 4 of their career and some of these little details look like they've played together for several years.

[The Jackal]

This is top 5 catches I've ever seen from a Furman player and on par with Pline's snag last year at Montana. Brock Chappell is about to keep SoCon defensive coordinator's up at night. You can't defend this.

Not quite as crazy, but also pretty much indefensible. This one was going to be a first down regardless because the linebacker opted to grab Jackson by the facemask coming out of the backfield.