DE Strength to Problem

[The Jackal]

I agree on Coleman. I think he is a guy you may well see play some DE/DT in Furman's system.

At bottom, most schools simply identify defensive linemen as one group, without really dividing up between the nuanced distinctions between NG/DT/DE/NT. Mercer, Samford, and Elon all run odd man fronts but designate all their defensive linemen by the same position. Samford distinguishes between DT/DE on their depth chart. Mercer does not.

I look at it this way. Furman has two very good NGs playing out of an odd man front. Perhaps the two best players at that position in the league. Beyond that, do they have four or five guys that can rotate in along the two other defensive line positions? I think they do.

[FUBeAR]

I agree on Coleman. I think he is a guy you may well see play some DE/DT in Furman's system.

At bottom, most schools simply identify defensive linemen as one group, without really dividing up between the nuanced distinctions between NG/DT/DE/NT. Mercer, Samford, and Elon all run odd man fronts but designate all their defensive linemen by the same position. Samford distinguishes between DT/DE on their depth chart. Mercer does not.

I look at it this way. Furman has two very good NGs playing out of an odd man front. Perhaps the two best players at that position in the league. Beyond that, do they have four or five guys that can rotate in along the two other defensive line positions? I think they do.

Pretty sure Samford has been mostly 4-3. They use funny names for some of their D-Positions in their depth chart postings, but it’s a 4-3 base.

VMI has been 3-4 & I think Chatt went to 3-4 last year with their new staff.

[The Jackal]

I agree on Coleman. I think he is a guy you may well see play some DE/DT in Furman's system.

At bottom, most schools simply identify defensive linemen as one group, without really dividing up between the nuanced distinctions between NG/DT/DE/NT. Mercer, Samford, and Elon all run odd man fronts but designate all their defensive linemen by the same position. Samford distinguishes between DT/DE on their depth chart. Mercer does not.

I look at it this way. Furman has two very good NGs playing out of an odd man front. Perhaps the two best players at that position in the league. Beyond that, do they have four or five guys that can rotate in along the two other defensive line positions? I think they do.

Pretty sure Samford has been mostly 4-3. They use funny names for some of their D-Positions in their depth chart postings, but it’s a 4-3 base.

VMI has been 3-4 & I think Chatt went to 3-4 last year with their new staff.

I believe you are correct. I think the only even man fronts in the SoCon are WCU and Samford. A marked shift from years past. Samford, who I think only releases a depth chart for the season, not each game, lists three defensive line positions and a variety of uniquely named positions.

[FUBeAR]

I agree on Coleman. I think he is a guy you may well see play some DE/DT in Furman's system.

At bottom, most schools simply identify defensive linemen as one group, without really dividing up between the nuanced distinctions between NG/DT/DE/NT. Mercer, Samford, and Elon all run odd man fronts but designate all their defensive linemen by the same position. Samford distinguishes between DT/DE on their depth chart. Mercer does not.

I look at it this way. Furman has two very good NGs playing out of an odd man front. Perhaps the two best players at that position in the league. Beyond that, do they have four or five guys that can rotate in along the two other defensive line positions? I think they do.

Pretty sure Samford has been mostly 4-3. They use funny names for some of their D-Positions in their depth chart postings, but it’s a 4-3 base.

VMI has been 3-4 & I think Chatt went to 3-4 last year with their new staff.

I believe you are correct. I think the only even man fronts in the SoCon are WCU and Samford. A marked shift from years past. Samford, who I think only releases a depth chart for the season, not each game, lists three defensive line positions and a variety of uniquely named positions.

Sammy publishes their depth chart in their game notes https://samfordsports.com/documents/201 ... fs2017.pdfscroll WAY down. They call their ‘flexible’ DE (he may occasionally play from a 2 point stance) a “Stud.” Then they have a NG (1Tec), a DT (3Tec), another DE, and 3 LB’s. It’s a base 4-3.

Bellhops also run a base 4-3. http://citadelsports.com/documents/2017 ... f?id=10423page 10. They call their ‘flexible’ DE a “KAT” and their ‘flexible’ LB (LB/SS) a “Bandit.” Then, they have a NG, a DT, another DE, and 2 other LB’s. It’s a base 4-3.

4-3: sammy, bellhops, wcu
3-4: Furman, Mercer, chatt, vmi, woffy, etsu

[The Jackal]

Looking back at Furman's game against the Citadel, it looks like the Cadets spent a lot of time in an odd man front, especially 5-2.

Several times it looks like they lined up in what we used to call the "Double Georgia," a 5 man front with a 60 look on the strong side and a 40 look on the weak side, both linebackers in the A gap. Frankly, they tried a whole bunch of stuff that didn't work.

Regardless, though, I think you are seeing teams move to this look because there are more available athletic linebacker types available on the recruiting market than big interior DLs. If one team wants to take a guy and put his hand on the ground and call him a DE and the other wants to stand him up and call him a OLB, that's fine. Seems like the same player doing roughly the same thing.

[Paladin82]

I never get tired of watching those highlights.

[The Jackal]

I never get tired of watching those highlights.

Also the game where we scored a touchdown after shifting the offensive line pre-snap.

I can’t say that I’ve seen every football game ever played, but I’ve seen a bunch. I’ve never seen a team do that until Furman started doing it this year.

[AstroDin]

Looking back at Furman's game against the Citadel, it looks like the Cadets spent a lot of time in an odd man front, especially 5-2.

Several times it looks like they lined up in what we used to call the "Double Georgia," a 5 man front with a 60 look on the strong side and a 40 look on the weak side, both linebackers in the A gap. Frankly, they tried a whole bunch of stuff that didn't work.

Regardless, though, I think you are seeing teams move to this look because there are more available athletic linebacker types available on the recruiting market than big interior DLs. If one team wants to take a guy and put his hand on the ground and call him a DE and the other wants to stand him up and call him a OLB, that's fine. Seems like the same player doing roughly the same thing.

I will never tire of watching a beat down of The Citadel… the only thing that could be better is a beat down of Wofford.

[Bootie]

I never get tired of watching those highlights.

Also the game where we scored a touchdown after shifting the offensive line pre-snap.

I can’t say that I’ve seen every football game ever played, but I’ve seen a bunch. I’ve never seen a team do that until Furman started doing it this year.

I know you've prob addressed it before, but please explain what that shift is doing for the offense and to the defense.

[AstroDin]

Back to this thread's proposed state of the d-line. Jackal mentioned earlier that Furman has two top class nose guards. Jay Reid alone is SoCon talent and hard for opposing teams to handle his strength and quickness. Paker Stokes I think is even quicker. I still can't get over how Stokes surprised Mercer QB Kaelan Riley and sacked him. The more I think about it the DL will be a strength this season.

[The Jackal]

I never get tired of watching those highlights.

Also the game where we scored a touchdown after shifting the offensive line pre-snap.

I can’t say that I’ve seen every football game ever played, but I’ve seen a bunch. I’ve never seen a team do that until Furman started doing it this year.

I know you've prob addressed it before, but please explain what that shift is doing for the offense and to the defense.

The basic framework of what Furman does there is not revolutionary. You'll see references to an "unbalanced line" or sometimes "tackle over." Essentially the offense is taking an OL from one side of the formation and lining him up on the other side, giving you three OL (usually G, T, T) to one side of the formation. Ordinarily the TE slides down and plays next to the G on weak side.

It is a defensible move. If a defense recognizes it quickly, you essentially just slide everyone over a gap to the strong side of the field. It's the same number of players the offense is using, they have just lined them up in an atypical spot. You essentially counter the offense's overload of oneside by overloading the defense to the same side (with recognition that the back side TE (now in the OT spot) is a likely target for a pass).

Nearly every time you see a team do this, though, they break the huddle and come out in that formation. What Furman did (that I had never seen before) is that they had the entire offensive line (except the center, who cannot move) shift one position to the right. It is the same idea, except the shift is so quick the defense does not have time to recognize and react to it.

On that touchdown play (2:31), Furman comes out with the strength (G, T, TE) to the short (left) side of the field. Pre-snap, the entire line moves, and the LG flips around to the RG, RG to RT, and the RT where would expect the TE to be. It takes about 1 second for Furman to flip the strength of the formation to the wide side of the field. You can immediately see the Citadel defensive players trying to sort out what they are seeing.

Furman then puts the left wingback in motion across the formation. So, Furman has now shifted the strength of the formation with the OL, and brings a running back to the same side as a blocker. 9 of 11 players are blocking on this play (besides Blazejowski and Dirks) and all but 2 of them are on one side of the formation. Furman essentially outflanks the Citadel by having more blockers on that side of the field than they have defenders.

Just my opinion, but its really hard for defensive linemen to pick up on this. They have limited visibility and are relying on the linebackers to make calls and get them in position. On that play, you can see that the Citadel's DE (on the offense's right side), who looks to be playing outside the OT's shoulder, does not move when the OL moves. When the ball is snapped, Furman has two blockers (OT and RB) outside of the guy on Citadel's defense responsible for containing the play to the outside.

Given the circumstances, I think the Citadel played it fairly well, but the idea is that on the snap of the ball there are more purple jerseys than white jerseys to the right side of the formation.

[The Jackal]

Back to this thread's proposed state of the d-line. Jackal mentioned earlier that Furman has two top class nose guards. Jay Reid alone is SoCon talent and hard for opposing teams to handle his strength and quickness. Paker Stokes I think is even quicker. I still can't get over how Stokes surprised Mercer QB Kaelan Riley and sacked him. The more I think about it the DL will be a strength this season.

I don't know how fast Stokes is, but he's faster than Kaelan Riley thought he would be on that particular play.

[FUBeAR]

I never get tired of watching those highlights.

Also the game where we scored a touchdown after shifting the offensive line pre-snap.

I can’t say that I’ve seen every football game ever played, but I’ve seen a bunch. I’ve never seen a team do that until Furman started doing it this year.

Not that new - old single wing concept.

https://youtu.be/Skob7GDABiE
4:23

Single wing evolved, combining elements of T-Formation & Split-T, into the Wing-T (or as we say in the South, the “Wang-T”). Coach Cronic is a Wing-T guy. Be interesting to see if this wrinkle is deployed by the ‘Dins in the future now that he has departed for beautiful Hickory, NC.

[The Jackal]

There is nothing actually "new" in football. Many offenses are roughly the same with variations in looks and formations. There are only so many ways 11 men can line up on the field within the rules.

Without pouring over film from the 1930s, I still have not seen a team shift its offensive line pre-snap. Maybe it happens all the time, I've just never seen it. If other teams do it, I imagine it is pretty rare.

Open question on whether some of these wrinkles stay at Furman with Cronic's departure. I imagine Quarles has a few tricks up his sleeve, though.

[FUBeAR]

Without pouring over film from the 1930s

*40’s

Another example at 5:28, btw