Changing times ...

[FUBeAR]

The future (actually much of the present) is mercenaries who represent schools, in place of students who are participants in the educational mission of schools.

That's hard for me to read given that I was a math and computer science tutor for 3 years, while completing ROTC and serving as a army 2nd lieutenant in my junior year.
It's a stereotype; show me the evidence that they are ALL lazy and don't go to class.

It's not the students I am worried about. I'm sure we expect the FSU's, Florida, and Alabama's of the world to have players that are a bit less focused on academics and more focused on going pro.

However, Furman is already having students graduate high school early so they can attend spring practice and fans are discussing adding graduate programs to help Furman be more competitive in attracting transfers. For better or worse, this what it takes to be competitive at the FCS level and signal to prospective players that we take football seriously.

Part of my concern is that, in an effort to facilitate attracting transfer students, I expect within the next few years having a degree from an academic institution will not have the same implications that it once did. Historically, some credits didn't transfer, there were specific class requirements for majors, and a degree from a university meant you spent more than a calendar year there. Where we are going may include players graduating with a degree while only spending one semester at a University and their class in puppeteering counting as organic chemistry for their BS in biology as that is what it will take to compete at the FCS level and signal to prospective players that we take football seriously.

Do not disagree with your point at all, but way back in the dark ages, FUBeAR earned an MBA from Clemson University and the only time he spent in a Clemson classroom with a Clemson Professor was when he took the GMAT (FUBeAR recalls the in-room proctor was a CU Prof…maybe not). 80% of classes @ FU with FU Biz Prof’s & 20% @ GaState with GaState Biz Prof’s.

So…there have always been exceptions to the traditional tracks, but, to your point, exception is rapidly becoming the rule.

[sluggo]

It's not the students I am worried about. I'm sure we expect the FSU's, Florida, and Alabama's of the world to have players that are a bit less focused on academics and more focused on going pro.

However, Furman is already having students graduate high school early so they can attend spring practice and fans are discussing adding graduate programs to help Furman be more competitive in attracting transfers. For better or worse, this what it takes to be competitive at the FCS level and signal to prospective players that we take football seriously.

Part of my concern is that, in an effort to facilitate attracting transfer students, I expect within the next few years having a degree from an academic institution will not have the same implications that it once did. Historically, some credits didn't transfer, there were specific class requirements for majors, and a degree from a university meant you spent more than a calendar year there. Where we are going may include players graduating with a degree while only spending one semester at a University and their class in puppeteering counting as organic chemistry for their BS in biology as that is what it will take to compete at the FCS level and signal to prospective players that we take football seriously.

I didn't know about players graduating early to do spring practice. I don't like that too much.
Doing spring practice before even attending one college class is not what I would endorse.

So I see what you guys are saying : The slippery slope is slippery.

I just don't like being treated like all I did was play football when I busted my butt studying to get my degree.
I remember when I decided it was better to take football off my resume after not landing a job in six months.
Two weeks later I was hired as a computer programmer.
The stereotype hurts the players when they look for jobs, so we shouldn't promote it when "putting down" the
bigger schools.

[FUTex]

My experience has been the scholarship athletes are ON AVERAGE better students that the general student body.

[Thorny]

I'm not a player so take what I say with a grain of salt.

My understanding of the practice of players graduating early to attend spring practice is that the Football coach/University goes to the High School and asks for them to wave the final credits/academic requirements needed for graduation and the player goes ahead and graduates to enrol at the University that spring.

Now, I don't think doing this cheapens the high school diploma, a college education, and the academic integrity of the American educational system. I also do not think that final semester of high school is meaningful for a college bound student in good standing.

However, it is throwing out degree requirements with nothing comparable like this occurring outside of athletics and if those shenanigans are applied at the undergraduate level in the name of competing for transfer players I DO think it will cheapen what a college diploma and undergraduate education means.

Now, times are changing. It is possible, that in order to facilitate this practice, that high schools curriculums and degree requirements are being setup so that students can legitimately graduate early but that is not my understanding of how all this started.

[sluggo]

My experience has been the scholarship athletes are ON AVERAGE better students that the general student body.

That's always true. Even in high school, the drop out rate is 20-40% in big cities among non-athletes; but almost zero among athletes, band members and cheerleaders.
But the opposite stereotype prevails as the "majority" is jealous and even hateful sometimes.

[sluggo]

I'm not a player so take what I say with a grain of salt.

My understanding of the practice of players graduating early to attend spring practice is that the Football coach/University goes to the High School and asks for them to wave the final credits/academic requirements needed for graduation and the player goes ahead and graduates to enrol at the University that spring.

Now, I don't think doing this cheapens the high school diploma, a college education, and the academic integrity of the American educational system. I also do not think that final semester of high school is meaningful for a college bound student in good standing.

However, it is throwing out degree requirements with nothing comparable like this occurring outside of athletics and if those shenanigans are applied at the undergraduate level in the name of competing for transfer players I DO think it will cheapen what a college diploma and undergraduate education means.

Now, times are changing. It is possible, that in order to facilitate this practice, that high schools curriculums and degree requirements are being setup so that students can legitimately graduate early but that is not my understanding of how all this started.

My personal experience was that I was told that I had completed all requirements to graduate after my junior year of high school.
I only took four classes my senior year, so that I was eligible to play sports.
So, not so sure about them "cancelling" requirements.
I actually was glad to have taken advanced mathematics my senior year; but the rest was almost like just "killing time".
Nevertheless, I don't like kids leaving high school early to play college football.

[FUTex]

My experience has been the scholarship athletes are ON AVERAGE better students that the general student body.

That's always true. Even in high school, the drop out rate is 20-40% in big cities among non-athletes; but almost zero among athletes, band members and cheerleaders.
But the opposite stereotype prevails as the "majority" is jealous and even hateful sometimes.

I think Sluggo is on to a truth: Envy. Nerdboys like me were frequently resentful of the social power of the jocks. So, we focused on the "dumb jock" stereotype (and you can always find one) to justify our resentment. We miss the 66% in the middle by focusing on the tails.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to describe our old NCAA rules as a "plantation" system, but would say we did not adhere to free markets and personal liberty. Oh, I despise the portal, but we shouldn't ensnare people to where they can't explore their talents. So I'm with Sluggo, but I still hate the portal anyway.

tl;dr - I caught a possum.

[Thorny]

I'm not a player so take what I say with a grain of salt.

My understanding of the practice of players graduating early to attend spring practice is that the Football coach/University goes to the High School and asks for them to wave the final credits/academic requirements needed for graduation and the player goes ahead and graduates to enrol at the University that spring.

Now, I don't think doing this cheapens the high school diploma, a college education, and the academic integrity of the American educational system. I also do not think that final semester of high school is meaningful for a college bound student in good standing.

However, it is throwing out degree requirements with nothing comparable like this occurring outside of athletics and if those shenanigans are applied at the undergraduate level in the name of competing for transfer players I DO think it will cheapen what a college diploma and undergraduate education means.

Now, times are changing. It is possible, that in order to facilitate this practice, that high schools curriculums and degree requirements are being setup so that students can legitimately graduate early but that is not my understanding of how all this started.

My personal experience was that I was told that I had completed all requirements to graduate after my junior year of high school.
I only took four classes my senior year, so that I was eligible to play sports.
So, not so sure about them "cancelling" requirements.
I actually was glad to have taken advanced mathematics my senior year; but the rest was almost like just "killing time".
Nevertheless, I don't like kids leaving high school early to play college football.

So, I looked up some stuff via googling.

As for prevalence, 40 of the top 100 football recruits enrolled at their respective universities early in 2017.

As for waving academic requirements for early graduation, I appear to be wrong. What little I know of the practice was largely colored by the situation with Aaron Hernandez. Most articles on the subject describe Aaron as not academicly ready for college and his principle regrets letting him graduate early *BY TAKING SUMMER CLASSES* as this was very much something outside the norm and something they weren't comfortable with.

I guess you can get whatever you want out of Aaron meeting all of his high school academic obligations for graduation but not being academicly ready for college...

[Roundball]

Another good P&C article. “NCAA's $2.7 billion settlement will mean less money for The Citadel, CofC, CSU.” https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/n ... 67af3.html

[Furmanoid]

My experience has been the scholarship athletes are ON AVERAGE better students that the general student body.

That's always true. Even in high school, the drop out rate is 20-40% in big cities among non-athletes; but almost zero among athletes, band members and cheerleaders.
But the opposite stereotype prevails as the "majority" is jealous and even hateful sometimes.

In college nowadays (maybe not when you played) and at most schools (maybe not FU) many, many athletes take bogus courses and receive bogus grades. Everybody knows this. So it’s difficult to do legitimate comparisons to stoners and such because the stoners flunk and nobody cares.

HS sports definitely encourage attendance which of course increases graduation rates. Athletes aren’t allowed to exceed absentee limits by too much. And they have to get D’s. In my experience, basketball and FB players are mostly in middle level classes, but a large number are in remedial classes. The kicker, maybe QB, golfers, soccer might take AP.

So while sports are a great influence, let’s be real. HS athletes mostly scrape by with C’s and D’s in unbelievably easy classes. The ones who get the occasional B might get a scholarship (but not to FU).

[Affirm]

Another good P&C article. “NCAA's $2.7 billion settlement will mean less money for The Citadel, CofC, CSU.” https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/n ... 67af3.html

Haven’t read the article yet, but I implied the same for Furman when the settlement first occurred. Most on UFFP seem to me to be in denial of this “less money”. We need to face what’s ahead realistically.

[Roundball]

Another good P&C article. “NCAA's $2.7 billion settlement will mean less money for The Citadel, CofC, CSU.” https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/n ... 67af3.html

Haven’t read the article yet, but I implied the same for Furman when the settlement first occurred. Most on UFFP seem to me to be in denial of this “less money”. We need to face what’s ahead realistically.

From the article. “C of C expects to see between $150,000-$200,000 less each year from the NCAA beginning in 2025, while The Citadel expects its payout to go down around $275,000.”

[Affirm]

CofC total revenues are greater than Citadel, $21.3 million vs $20.1 million. CofC AD seems much more positive about the situation than Citadel AD (who remarks on losing $3,000,000 over 10 years). Citadel of course has major football expenditures which CofC does not. CofC AD happily alludes to the settlement making possible the protection of continuing March Madness income for his school. I suppose each of these ADs have expressed their own individual realistic views. Being a private school, I realize Furman’s AD has no real obligation to express his views on the matter publically. So, it’s up to UFFP posters to say what is realistically going to happen for Furman in regard to this matter.

[sluggo]

In college nowadays (maybe not when you played) and at most schools (maybe not FU) many, many athletes take bogus courses and receive bogus grades. Everybody knows this. So it’s difficult to do legitimate comparisons to stoners and such because the stoners flunk and nobody cares.

HS sports definitely encourage attendance which of course increases graduation rates. Athletes aren’t allowed to exceed absentee limits by too much. And they have to get D’s. In my experience, basketball and FB players are mostly in middle level classes, but a large number are in remedial classes. The kicker, maybe QB, golfers, soccer might take AP.

So while sports are a great influence, let’s be real. HS athletes mostly scrape by with C’s and D’s in unbelievably easy classes. The ones who get the occasional B might get a scholarship (but not to FU).

Why do schools offer "bogus classes"? Is it a conspiracy?
They can't take bogus classes that aren't offered.


"Everybody knows this". I'm reminded of the phrase "She F'd her way to the top", when I hear that.
Men who failed spewed that one a lot.

Find a kicker, QB, golfer or soccer player that majored in computer science and math at Furman, like I did? LOL!
I was the "fat dumb lineman" who tutored them.

Where is the proof of what you say; besides "everybody knows"?
Everybody knows a lot in bias stuff about other people, and they are typically not even involved in any of the
processes of evaluating the students at any level.

My experience is that offensive linemen make higher grades; but that's never the stereotype.
The "fat and stupid" stereotype prevails despite the reality.

What sport did you dominate in at Furman?

[apaladin]

More than likely the “bogus” classes only exist on paper. Remember the UNC thingy. Players were given grades for non-existent classes and the NCAA did nothing.