Status of Furman Football on 3/20/21

[youwouldno]

I think I pretty much agree with you. If it isn’t coaching, what do you think is the mysterious force that keeps us plateaued right about where we are no matter who is coaching? My theory (and it’s just a theory) is that the admissions office is holding us back.

I think it was you who posted earlier wondering if the demographics of HS football are changing. They are where I am. The Furman kind of kid doesn’t play (at least not in large numbers). They either play travel baseball, travel soccer or, in the vast majority of cases, nothing at all. The smart kid football star is living in a seller’s market. It’s hard to get enough legit ones to fill a roster. But how does WC do it? They’ve adjusted their requirements. That’s how.

Well, we'll see if Wofford continues to do it. I wonder if there's something else going on too though, even with the more highly sought-after players Furman lands. Given the program's FCS status and mixed results in recent years, I would imagine that the school itself is getting sold way, way more than the actual football program (and rightly so). But maybe the average Furman player has football lower on their priority list (even if they play as hard as they can during games). And even if it's not lower on the priority list, Furman student athletes have to put more effort into actual school than at most places.

That would also tie in with the demographic shifts and the massively increased cost of attendance (not that a full scholarship player is directly impacted per se - but it surely has indirect effects through the way HS students look at their options). The decline of SoCon football is undoubtedly a factor as well. And these trends have been occurring in parallel. The timelines seem to match up pretty well.

High school football participation (adjusted for HS population) peaked in the late 90s. I suspect that the football budget (relative to other FCS programs) started to decline around then as well, though that's a wild guess. Furman tuition started spiking in the late aughts. The FCS-era SoCon technically peaked in the 1980s but at least its best teams were nationally competitive until the early 2010s.

[Affirm]

Some people may not like this but I agree and wish we would lower our standards a little bit. Doesn’t winning football provide a fun experience

. It has certainly added to my enjoyment after matriculation for me. And their just aren’t enough 1400 SAT kids playing D1 football. I’ve heard that we raised the bar in the 90s and then again about 2000 and now again. If we have to wait for an Ivy to offer to get the go ahead we are behind the 8 ball before the kickoff. I’m honestly amazed we are as competitive as we are. And for all those who say “we have more to sell” w better academics the proof is right there that it goes the other way..

How well do Vandy and Duke do in football? Yep. Cellar dwellers. You can get a few kids w the value of the diploma but the rule outweighs the exception. Otherwise Duke and Vandy would kill! Their diplomas are - even more than ours w national reputations - def worth more than Bama or Clemson but they aren’t even close.

I am really asking. Can someone convince me the academics aren’t holding us back? I know there are some who disagree. Asking for honest back and forth. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe someone who played has a different take? Love to find I am wrong as that would give me more hope !

No. You are wrong. The tail (quality of athletics) should not be wagging the dog (quality of academics).

[Furmanoid]

Some people may not like this but I agree and wish we would lower our standards a little bit. Doesn’t winning football provide a fun experience

. It has certainly added to my enjoyment after matriculation for me. And their just aren’t enough 1400 SAT kids playing D1 football. I’ve heard that we raised the bar in the 90s and then again about 2000 and now again. If we have to wait for an Ivy to offer to get the go ahead we are behind the 8 ball before the kickoff. I’m honestly amazed we are as competitive as we are. And for all those who say “we have more to sell” w better academics the proof is right there that it goes the other way..

How well do Vandy and Duke do in football? Yep. Cellar dwellers. You can get a few kids w the value of the diploma but the rule outweighs the exception. Otherwise Duke and Vandy would kill! Their diplomas are - even more than ours w national reputations - def worth more than Bama or Clemson but they aren’t even close.

I am really asking. Can someone convince me the academics aren’t holding us back? I know there are some who disagree. Asking for honest back and forth. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe someone who played has a different take? Love to find I am wrong as that would give me more hope !

No. You are wrong. The tail (quality of athletics) should not be wagging the dog (quality of academics).

In the chemical industry I worked with lots of Clemson Chem. E’s. They were man for man better than the Ga Tech Chem E’s. Very, very sharp. But how can that be when they were forced to go to school those football players? Gads, seems like that would have wrecked their education.

[Affirm]

How long has it been since Furman won the SoCon championship in football outright (i.e., not a shared title, not a co-championship)? 30 years and 4 months (11/17/1990)

How long has it been since Furman won beyond a 2nd round playoff game in football? 15 years and 4 months) (12/3/2005)

How long since Furman won a SoCon men's basketball championship and got into NCAA Tournament? 41 years and 0 months (3/1980)

How long since Furman won a men's basketball NCAA Tournament game? 47 years and 0 months (3/1974 - the one and the only win)

How long since Furman won a SoCon women's basketball championship and got into NCAA Tournament? 21 years and 0 months (3/2000)
I presently continue to say Furman should consider Pioneer Football League.
I might not change my mind about that.
I might change my mind about it.
I would probably be much more inclined to change my mind if Furman would become more competitive than indicated by the above, or if some donor would come up with a very, very, very, very large gift to support athletics at Furman.
Pioneer Football League would still allow Furman to have football and have it at what I consider a more appropriate level for the level of Furman's resources. It would also allow Furman to focus on improving it's level of competition in men's and women's basketball, plus would allow Furman to have the baseball team that so many have complained so vocally about losing.

[gofurman]

Some people may not like this but I agree and wish we would lower our standards a little bit. Doesn’t winning football provide a fun experience

. It has certainly added to my enjoyment after matriculation for me. And their just aren’t enough 1400 SAT kids playing D1 football. I’ve heard that we raised the bar in the 90s and then again about 2000 and now again. If we have to wait for an Ivy to offer to get the go ahead we are behind the 8 ball before the kickoff. I’m honestly amazed we are as competitive as we are. And for all those who say “we have more to sell” w better academics the proof is right there that it goes the other way..

How well do Vandy and Duke do in football? Yep. Cellar dwellers. You can get a few kids w the value of the diploma but the rule outweighs the exception. Otherwise Duke and Vandy would kill! Their diplomas are - even more than ours w national reputations - def worth more than Bama or Clemson but they aren’t even close.

I am really asking. Can someone convince me the academics aren’t holding us back? I know there are some who disagree. Asking for honest back and forth. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe someone who played has a different take? Love to find I am wrong as that would give me more hope !

No. You are wrong. The tail (quality of athletics) should not be wagging the dog (quality of academics).

I understand. I felt I might see blowback. Lol. I just meant a little. Does anyone view Woff as a school differently if football allows a few more guys? I think if we allowed a few more exceptions (close to acceptance) it doesn’t change the perception of the whole school. 8 football players doesnt change how the community sees 2700 students.

[gofurman]

What good does it do to a young man or young woman if Furman lowers its standards for a certain sport, only to have them struggle in classes?

I think most kids would agree that getting accepted to Clemson is harder than getting accepted to Furman. So Clemson is a “harder school”. But Clemson’s roster isn’t filled with guys from St. so and so’s Episcopal Day Academy. And those guys they get from Bamburg or Vance or Central pretty much all graduate. You can get guys through school if you want to. And transfers are really a safe bet if they stayed eligible wherever they came from.

But if the recruiting guys say we have awesome classes, maybe the players aren’t the problem. And we know the Coach isn’t the problem. The last couple weeks eliminated the cheating refs theory. We have been unscathed by Covid or injuries. Maybe it’s points shaving.

This is a new one to me. I've heard Professors call Furman self selecting/I've never heard Clemson was harder to get into or a harder school. From what I have seen and others have noticed this as well is that most students who can't hack it at Furman but transfer to Clemson end up being fine at Clemson and no one is coming to Furman when they can't hack it at Clemson.

I know that things kind of fell off with Smolla but I would definitely argue that when I met Clemson students, on average, they seemed a lot more average than Furman students.

Clemson is now listed as SC hardest school for admission w Furman second

[Thorny]

I'll agree that Clemson is harder to get into at this point. I will not agree that Clemson is the harder school of the two.

[Furmanoid]

I'll agree that Clemson is harder to get into at this point. I will not agree that Clemson is the harder school of the two.

Way back I put harder school in quotes because that is pretty impossible to determine. Most people think hard to get in = hard but that isn’t true. I know a girl at Dartmouth who just goofs off and enjoys life.

And a hard school doesn’t necessarily give one a better education. They can be hard because the prof’s suck. I had a Chemistry prof at FU who didn’t speak English. That was hard alright, but I didn’t learn much.

Majors matter too. There is nothing at FU as hard as Clemson’s Chem E or EE, but for lots of other stuff FU is probably harder.

The point is that Clemson is certainly on the same academic level as FU, but I’m pretty sure their admissions office cuts athletes some slack, and those athletes graduate.

At FU athletes may even be at a disadvantage compared to rich nonathletes because they are forced to take SAT’s. A player from here was told he had to make a certain score on the SAT (above the ncaa clearinghouse min) while I interviewed private school kids who didn’t even have to take the thing. Go figure.

Maybe there is no problem with recruiting. But dang, if recruiting is good and coaches are good and nobody’s hurt or sick, and refs are giving us silly favorable treatment, what’s the problem?

[apaladin]

I'll agree that Clemson is harder to get into at this point. I will not agree that Clemson is the harder school of the two.

There are other reasons but I would say a main reason CU has so many applications is the success of their sports programs. FU does not have that issue.

[tim]

How long has it been since Furman won the SoCon championship in football outright (i.e., not a shared title, not a co-championship)? 30 years and 4 months (11/17/1990)

How long has it been since Furman won beyond a 2nd round playoff game in football? 15 years and 4 months) (12/3/2005)

How long since Furman won a SoCon men's basketball championship and got into NCAA Tournament? 41 years and 0 months (3/1980)

How long since Furman won a men's basketball NCAA Tournament game? 47 years and 0 months (3/1974 - the one and the only win)

How long since Furman won a SoCon women's basketball championship and got into NCAA Tournament? 21 years and 0 months (3/2000)
I presently continue to say Furman should consider Pioneer Football League.
I might not change my mind about that.
I might change my mind about it.
I would probably be much more inclined to change my mind if Furman would become more competitive than indicated by the above, or if some donor would come up with a very, very, very, very large gift to support athletics at Furman.
Pioneer Football League would still allow Furman to have football and have it at what I consider a more appropriate level for the level of Furman's resources. It would also allow Furman to focus on improving it's level of competition in men's and women's basketball, plus would allow Furman to have the baseball team that so many have complained so vocally about losing.

So for football, its a national championship, deep playoff run or cannibalize the program for other sports? You see no value in a shared title or a simple playoff appearance. And for those that don't like it, its ok to leave. Your arrogance is amazing .Can't you be a fan without trying to manage the whole athletic program? If you don't like the program, why don't YOU leave? Do you know how many donors come out of the football program? Apply your standard to basketball and that program would be dropped. Don't think throwing money at that 42 year old problem is the answer. You referenced Davidson? Davidson almost destroyed their whole athletic program by moving football down, check their years in the Big South. They just got lucky with the McKillop hire. I personally know that during that hire, the interview form asked if candidates would still be interested if the whole program moved to D3. Count the number of times you use the personal pronoun "I" . Thats YOUR problem.

[palafan]

Never thought I'd say this, but I'd really like to see VMI win the SoCon since we won't.

[gofurman]

I'll agree that Clemson is harder to get into at this point. I will not agree that Clemson is the harder school of the two.

Way back I put harder school in quotes because that is pretty impossible to determine. Most people think hard to get in = hard but that isn’t true. I know a girl at Dartmouth who just goofs off and enjoys life.

And a hard school doesn’t necessarily give one a better education. They can be hard because the prof’s suck. I had a Chemistry prof at FU who didn’t speak English. That was hard alright, but I didn’t learn much.

Majors matter too. There is nothing at FU as hard as Clemson’s Chem E or EE, but for lots of other stuff FU is probably harder.

The point is that Clemson is certainly on the same academic level as FU, but I’m pretty sure their admissions office cuts athletes some slack, and those athletes graduate.

At FU athletes may even be at a disadvantage compared to rich nonathletes because they are forced to take SAT’s. A player from here was told he had to make a certain score on the SAT (above the ncaa clearinghouse min) while I interviewed private school kids who didn’t even have to take the thing. Go figure.

Maybe there is no problem with recruiting. But dang, if recruiting is good and coaches are good and nobody’s hurt or sick, and refs are giving us silly favorable treatment, what’s the problem?

This is what I was driving at. a few athletes with a little flexibility might be a good thing. Being surrounded by a complete homogeneous population isn't always good - CLPs for football !!

[apaladin]

I would rather bellyache, complain, lose sleep over a football program I care about than have a football program that I don’t care about.

[Furmanoid]

Exactly.
And CLP’s for football is a great idea.

[Thorny]

I'll agree that Clemson is harder to get into at this point. I will not agree that Clemson is the harder school of the two.

Way back I put harder school in quotes because that is pretty impossible to determine. Most people think hard to get in = hard but that isn’t true. I know a girl at Dartmouth who just goofs off and enjoys life.

And a hard school doesn’t necessarily give one a better education. They can be hard because the prof’s suck. I had a Chemistry prof at FU who didn’t speak English. That was hard alright, but I didn’t learn much.

Majors matter too. There is nothing at FU as hard as Clemson’s Chem E or EE, but for lots of other stuff FU is probably harder.

The point is that Clemson is certainly on the same academic level as FU, but I’m pretty sure their admissions office cuts athletes some slack, and those athletes graduate.

At FU athletes may even be at a disadvantage compared to rich nonathletes because they are forced to take SAT’s. A player from here was told he had to make a certain score on the SAT (above the ncaa clearinghouse min) while I interviewed private school kids who didn’t even have to take the thing. Go figure.

Maybe there is no problem with recruiting. But dang, if recruiting is good and coaches are good and nobody’s hurt or sick, and refs are giving us silly favorable treatment, what’s the problem?

I'm going to blame the coaches but I have faith that they are competent enough to fix things as well. I don't have the same feelings about our fan base and know that we could beat Clemson and some on here would still be claiming the sky is falling.

/The fact that CCH et al. could do so much with so little their first year and now, despite winning games, at times the offense looks absolutely impotent is beyond me.