Questions about "the glory years" vs. now

[Jasper]

There is a term which explains how such things could happen at a school like Furman. It's called "willful ignorance". A willingness to look the other way or sweep things under the rug.

Everybody liked Big Time basketball and NOBODY wanted to rock the boat by pointing out inconvenient truths.

I have been around "big time" college basketball for most of my life and you are spot on. It's a dirty little secret that is really not a secret at all. There have always been "certain" schools that have paid recruits to come to their schools and then salaried them while players. That is simply a fact. Some schools did it all the time, some went in and out of that dark place periodically. You can often track a particular institution's participation in illegal payments by watching sudden and dramatic shifts in the their on court performance. I am somewhat surprised but not shocked at the allegations that Furman was a participant . FU fits the description of a small school that comes out of nowhere, attains national prominence for a short period of time and then falls back to relative obscurity when the skullduggery ends. People on this board who were here at the time are making these assertions and they sound very plausible and sincere. There was a time that schools that are now considered mid major or less were nationally ranked. LaSalle, St. Louis, Bradley, U of San Francisco, Southern Illinois to name a few were among the top teams in the country. They achieved that because they had better players than the bigger schools. How and why? Where are they now? Keep in mind that UCLA did not win all those championships because of John Wooden. If Lew Alcindor (Abdul-Jabbar), Bill Walton, Gail Goodrich and Walt Hazzard were playing for the Little Sisters of the Poor College, they would have been national champions as well. I suspect the Furman coach at the time knew what was going on and wanted a piece of that action. He had to get the payment money from somewhere and that is where your theory of "willing ignorance" on the part of the administration comes in. At FU or any other institution.

And it could have been worse for FU. These under the table payments were the foundation of the basketball point shaving scandals. IF a kid was taking money, he damned well knew he was doing something wrong. He was a fertile mark for the gamblers then to offer him even more money to effect the score of the game against the point spread. He didn't even have to throw Grand Old Ivy completely under the bus. Just win by less points than were being laid. The best teams in the country were CCNY, Long Island University, NYU, St. John's, Manhattan and Seton Hall - all in and around NYC and every Tues and Thursday nites there would be a double header at Madison Square Garden featuring 2 of the local nationally ranked team against one of the then power house teams from around the country in front of a packed house of 17k -18k people. In that packed house there were as many guys wearing fedoras and munching on a cigar as there were crew cut college kids. That atmosphere was perfect for some funny business and soon many of those scholar/athletes/ employees were shaving their little hearts out. I mean if you are taking $10 under the table to go to the damned school, why not reach under for another $20? Remember, these were poor kids for the most part from the inner city CYO gyms and outdoor courts - both White and Black. I don't recall FU being at the Garden in their halcyon days of the Williams era and I haven't heard that on this thread. Good miss. That's a big stain.

Its too bad that the program is tainted as some knowledgeable people around here are saying but I can assure you the Dins are in very good (or is it bad?) company as far as prestige is concerned. I don't think that Georgetown, ND, North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA...to name a few come to the table with clean hands. Doesn't make it right. But in the words of Mahatma Ghandi - "S--T HAPPENS". Let's forget it and worry about how the hell to beat Wofford.

[cavedweller2]

Who cares, really. Furman needs some scandal and stains to come out. We won big in the 70's and it was a blast.

I could give a rats ass if we were paying players. If we would pay a couple of 7 footers now then we might go deep in the tourney.

[apaladin]

Furman did play at Madison Square Garden in the mid 70’s and won there IIRC.

[Furmanoid]

Johns started in 1976. I know Joe Williams was still there when I went to Furman Scholars day in spring 1978 because he introduced us to Jonathan Moore. Williams left because he got hired by FSU not because of some cleanup. I don’t know about his pay scale, but Williams’ successor brought in a guy from my high school in 1980. I knew the guy, and he was so mentally slow that I’m almost certain he was in special ed. I know he was when we were in middle school. He may have been literate but only just barely. So I was surprised to see him at Furman. I also heard he was provided a summer job in a Greenville bank. He only lasted one season though. I’m pretty sure his case was more extreme than anything Williams did. So we didn’t become recruiting Pharisees until well into Dr. Johns tenure if not later. It didn’t bother me then, and it doesn’t now. I really doubt there were many good teams in those days that weren’t doing stuff like that except maybe Indiana which had an even worse problem (a psychopath). So let’s stop bashing Joe Williams for doing what successful coaches did in his era. If he was ok with John Johns he was ok with me.

[cavedweller2]

Did you go to Parker?

[Fork457]

The Mayes/Leonard teams would walk the dog on this years team.

If you think a college basketball team from the early 1970s would beat a current college basketball team you’re so far from reality that you either have a very low knowledge of basketball or you’re lying to yourself

[Fork457]

Furmalum, this is fun to speculate about. But to think that a team in any sport from almost a half century ago could compete with a 2020 team says a lot. Most of the time in most sports it is assumed that modern athletes are so much better that there wouldn’t be much of a contest. But in this case you would only go so far as to say that the current team would be competitive with the old ones. I think you’re right, but I think if they could do a 7 game series the ancient teams would almost certainly win because they would so completely dominate the boards and the paint. We forget how hard it is to even get a shot off against a team that big because we never see those teams anymore. We’ve also been conditioned to accept sloppy play ( turnovers, bad free throws) because that is the modern aau game. If the current FU teams shot better I would give them the edge, but I figure they wouldn’t have 4 good nights. It would be fun to watch and see what would happen.

You don’t see those teams anymore because the game has evolved and gotten better. Yeah it’s hard to score on a team that big if you also have slow big men who can’t shoot And 3s are not a weapon for you. A modern Furman team would easily beat a team from that era. They simply couldn’t guard 5 people around the 3 point line. There’s a reason basketball has changed. It’s not just because people like shooting 3s. Modern basketball offense is superior to offense from the 70s and 80s period.

[fufanatic]

Furmalum, this is fun to speculate about. But to think that a team in any sport from almost a half century ago could compete with a 2020 team says a lot. Most of the time in most sports it is assumed that modern athletes are so much better that there wouldn’t be much of a contest. But in this case you would only go so far as to say that the current team would be competitive with the old ones. I think you’re right, but I think if they could do a 7 game series the ancient teams would almost certainly win because they would so completely dominate the boards and the paint. We forget how hard it is to even get a shot off against a team that big because we never see those teams anymore. We’ve also been conditioned to accept sloppy play ( turnovers, bad free throws) because that is the modern aau game. If the current FU teams shot better I would give them the edge, but I figure they wouldn’t have 4 good nights. It would be fun to watch and see what would happen.

You don’t see those teams anymore because the game has evolved and gotten better. Yeah it’s hard to score on a team that big if you also have slow big men who can’t shoot And 3s are not a weapon for you. A modern Furman team would easily beat a team from that era. They simply couldn’t guard 5 people around the 3 point line. There’s a reason basketball has changed. It’s not just because people like shooting 3s. Modern basketball offense is superior to offense from the 70s and 80s period.

While it can be fun to talk about with friends over a beer, one reason it's silly to compare teams from different eras is the rule changes ... are the 70s Paladins and 2020s Paladins playing on a court with a 3-point line or without one? Are the rules/refs from a modern era or from the 70s?

[CharlieFU]

Johns started in 1976. I know Joe Williams was still there when I went to Furman Scholars day in spring 1978 because he introduced us to Jonathan Moore. Williams left because he got hired by FSU not because of some cleanup. I don’t know about his pay scale, but Williams’ successor brought in a guy from my high school in 1980. I knew the guy, and he was so mentally slow that I’m almost certain he was in special ed. I know he was when we were in middle school. He may have been literate but only just barely. So I was surprised to see him at Furman. I also heard he was provided a summer job in a Greenville bank. He only lasted one season though. I’m pretty sure his case was more extreme than anything Williams did. So we didn’t become recruiting Pharisees until well into Dr. Johns tenure if not later. It didn’t bother me then, and it doesn’t now. I really doubt there were many good teams in those days that weren’t doing stuff like that except maybe Indiana which had an even worse problem (a psychopath). So let’s stop bashing Joe Williams for doing what successful coaches did in his era. If he was ok with John Johns he was ok with me.

Now this brings back memories. I tutored a basketball player at Furman. Big white kid. Lasted one year. I just recall thinking he wasn’t gonna make it. I was there 80-84.

[Furmanoid]

Not the same guy. My guy was from a small town in S.C. I mean him no ill will but I couldn’t see how Coach Holbrook thought that was gonna work. And Fork457, they would not have to guard 5 3 point shooters because we don’t have 5. We don’t have even 1 who cracks the rankings for 3 point percentage. So your argument really relies on the belief that modern players are better than 70’s players because, well, just because. They don’t shoot free throws as well, they can’t shoot 10 ft jumpers, they rarely block shots, but they are better because their 22 footers count 3 instead of 2. I’m not sure I buy it, but that’s just me. I now retire from this topic.

[CharlieFU]

Both Bothwell and Mounce shoot over 40% from 3. Lyons and Hunter %’s are average at best.

Slawson blocks shots all the time.

As for shooting 10 footers? Coach doesn’t want them shooting those. Either around the basket or a good 3.

[cavedweller2]

The Mayes/Leonard teams would walk the dog on this years team.

If you think a college basketball team from the early 1970s would beat a current college basketball team you’re so far from reality that you either have a very low knowledge of basketball or you’re lying to yourself

Clyde , Fessor and the rest would provide a beat down.

[Jasper]

Both Bothwell and Mounce shoot over 40% from 3. Lyons and Hunter %’s are average at best.

Slawson blocks shots all the time.

As for shooting 10 footers? Coach doesn’t want them shooting those. Either around the basket or a good 3.

“Coach does not want them shooting those”. 10 footers that is. Tells me all I need to know.