Effort to rename Johnson Hagood Stadium

[Roundball]

Furman University is way ahead of this movement. Hopefully, what was accomplished by the diversity group will be enough.

[FUBeAR]

As to slavery, I think what Furman did was appropriate. We need to be honest about what it was, and the impact it had. It wasn't as it was portrayed on "Gone with the Wind." It was brutal, and those who justified it were wrong. Those who supported it at the time knew or should have known it was wrong. Thomas Jefferson called it an "abominable crime" in the Declaration of Independence, and yet he didn't give up the economic advantages it gave him. That needs to be said. George Washington knew it was wrong -- he struggled with the institution, and he emancipated his slaves when he died. That colonists thought taxation without representation deserved a Revolution, declaring that an inalienable right endowed from our Creator was liberty, is telling.

The Confederacy lost the Civil War, but after 11 years of Reconstruction, it waged it again, through lynch mobs led by people like Ben Tillman. In South Carolina, gangs of Red Shirts engaged in systemic violence, murder and intimidation, to elect Wade Hampton Governor in 1876 -- then they had the gall to call themselves "Redeemers." What exactly were they redeeming? So, I don't have a problem with changing the name of the street, or the high school, or the mascot, or stopping them from wearing red uniforms. That is wholly different that Washington or Jefferson, or other founding fathers who, while flawed, contributed values and traditions we rely on today.

Richard Furman had some shaky theology on slavery, but he also helped create the Baptist Convention, founded a university, was important in the Revolution, etc. James C. Furman is famous for 2 things -- being President of a University and being a leading secessionist. I am fine with changing the building to reflect other family members who contributed more to our community. I also would be fine with naming the building after Dr. Harrell, for his work in integrating Greenville County Schools. Johnson Hagood's only notoriety is his command of Battery Wagner -- where he was notoriously brutal to the 54th Massachusetts, because he believed them to be engaged in a slave rebellion.

I would take the dividing line past the mere Confederacy, to say if your sole notoriety is racial brutality and oppression, or if your brutality is shocking to the conscience, we can remove your statue. Gone are Tillman and Hampton, Washington and Jefferson are fine. Wouldn't we be shocked to see a statue of Bull Connor? Sims has to go -- he is America's Mengele. Calhoun is a closer call.

There is a reason we say slavery was the original sin of America. For my entire life, I have been told that the remedy for sin is earnest repentance.

The military bases were named after Confederates in the Jim Crow era, to appease supporters of the Jim Crow system; so they were named after people who violated the Constitution, to appease those who continued to do so. To me that one is not a hard call at all.

I also feel that what Furman U has done / is doing is beautiful, relevant, meaningful, and tangible. It is well thought out, highly reasoned, and should be a model for how other institutions address these issues.

Is that sort of deeply contemplated process what we are seeing play out on a national level now? Is that what we expect to occur going forward in a ‘new normal’ frame of sanity reference where “Silence = Murder?” FUBeAR kinda thinks not.

I like the Taggert Subjective Sliding Scale for Redemption & Restoration (TSSS4RR) that you have proposed. I also like purple unicorns & rainbows made of gummy worms with pots of gold at both ends.

Do you think you can get this system implemented soon?

FUBeAR is a bit more black & white (pun not really intended)...

2 choices...

1) Everything that can be tied directly to the War of Northern Aggression has to go & just stop with the fool’s errand of attempting to erase slavery & racism past. Maybe, make those situations only subject to local referendum at the appropriate lowest level of relevant locality (Washington Monument & Jefferson Memorial would be a National referendum, Washington (state) vs. ChazChop, a state-wide referendum & the Aiken situation described might be local or county, etc.) & trying to do anything otherwise is a crime.

2) Burn it all down - If anyone is ever offended by any non-living thing at all, they have the right to destroy it in the way they see fit without fear of any governmentally-sponsored consequences.

...or we declare the TSSS4RR is the new law of the land & Mr. Taggert will make all decisions in these matters unilaterally. Failure to abide by his directions will be punishable by law.

[Mr. Taggart]

I am impressed that you realized all changes have been made on my directive. It is important that you respect my authority... Or, in a democratic society, leaders can make decisions on their judgment. I offered mine -- it has no binding authority.

If I were at the Citadel, and thank goodness I am not, my scale would be easy -- if it makes it harder to recruit because it offends many of the people I recruit, I would probably change it.

[FUBeAR]

I am impressed that you realized all changes have been made on my directive. It is important that you respect my authority... Or, in a democratic society, leaders can make decisions on their judgment. I offered mine -- it has no binding authority.

If I were at the Citadel, and thank goodness I am not, my scale would be easy -- if it makes it harder to recruit because it offends many of the people I recruit, I would probably change it.

[Furmanoid]

As to slavery, I think what Furman did was appropriate. We need to be honest about what it was, and the impact it had. It wasn't as it was portrayed on "Gone with the Wind." It was brutal, and those who justified it were wrong. Those who supported it at the time knew or should have known it was wrong. Thomas Jefferson called it an "abominable crime" in the Declaration of Independence, and yet he didn't give up the economic advantages it gave him. That needs to be said. George Washington knew it was wrong -- he struggled with the institution, and he emancipated his slaves when he died. That colonists thought taxation without representation deserved a Revolution, declaring that an inalienable right endowed from our Creator was liberty, is telling.

The Confederacy lost the Civil War, but after 11 years of Reconstruction, it waged it again, through lynch mobs led by people like Ben Tillman. In South Carolina, gangs of Red Shirts engaged in systemic violence, murder and intimidation, to elect Wade Hampton Governor in 1876 -- then they had the gall to call themselves "Redeemers." What exactly were they redeeming? So, I don't have a problem with changing the name of the street, or the high school, or the mascot, or stopping them from wearing red uniforms. That is wholly different that Washington or Jefferson, or other founding fathers who, while flawed, contributed values and traditions we rely on today.

Richard Furman had some shaky theology on slavery, but he also helped create the Baptist Convention, founded a university, was important in the Revolution, etc. James C. Furman is famous for 2 things -- being President of a University and being a leading secessionist. I am fine with changing the building to reflect other family members who contributed more to our community. I also would be fine with naming the building after Dr. Harrell, for his work in integrating Greenville County Schools. Johnson Hagood's only notoriety is his command of Battery Wagner -- where he was notoriously brutal to the 54th Massachusetts, because he believed them to be engaged in a slave rebellion.

I would take the dividing line past the mere Confederacy, to say if your sole notoriety is racial brutality and oppression, or if your brutality is shocking to the conscience, we can remove your statue. Gone are Tillman and Hampton, Washington and Jefferson are fine. Wouldn't we be shocked to see a statue of Bull Connor? Sims has to go -- he is America's Mengele. Calhoun is a closer call.

There is a reason we say slavery was the original sin of America. For my entire life, I have been told that the remedy for sin is earnest repentance.

The military bases were named after Confederates in the Jim Crow era, to appease supporters of the Jim Crow system; so they were named after people who violated the Constitution, to appease those who continued to do so. To me that one is not a hard call at all.

So because my family listened to their friend, relative and spiritual leader, Richard Furman, they were evil brutes. But Furman is in the clear because he committed treason against the Crown and sort of started a Baptist organization. (He didn’t found FU.) No, that’s lawyerly bs. Gotta change the name if you REALLY buy into this nonsense.

By the way, you’ve got the Hampton-Tillman thing out of whack.Had Hampton and the Bourbons prevailed, there would have been no Tillmanite Jim Crowe era in SC.

[Roundball]

As to slavery, I think what Furman did was appropriate. We need to be honest about what it was, and the impact it had. It wasn't as it was portrayed on "Gone with the Wind." It was brutal, and those who justified it were wrong. Those who supported it at the time knew or should have known it was wrong. Thomas Jefferson called it an "abominable crime" in the Declaration of Independence, and yet he didn't give up the economic advantages it gave him. That needs to be said. George Washington knew it was wrong -- he struggled with the institution, and he emancipated his slaves when he died. That colonists thought taxation without representation deserved a Revolution, declaring that an inalienable right endowed from our Creator was liberty, is telling.

The Confederacy lost the Civil War, but after 11 years of Reconstruction, it waged it again, through lynch mobs led by people like Ben Tillman. In South Carolina, gangs of Red Shirts engaged in systemic violence, murder and intimidation, to elect Wade Hampton Governor in 1876 -- then they had the gall to call themselves "Redeemers." What exactly were they redeeming? So, I don't have a problem with changing the name of the street, or the high school, or the mascot, or stopping them from wearing red uniforms. That is wholly different that Washington or Jefferson, or other founding fathers who, while flawed, contributed values and traditions we rely on today.

Richard Furman had some shaky theology on slavery, but he also helped create the Baptist Convention, founded a university, was important in the Revolution, etc. James C. Furman is famous for 2 things -- being President of a University and being a leading secessionist. I am fine with changing the building to reflect other family members who contributed more to our community. I also would be fine with naming the building after Dr. Harrell, for his work in integrating Greenville County Schools. Johnson Hagood's only notoriety is his command of Battery Wagner -- where he was notoriously brutal to the 54th Massachusetts, because he believed them to be engaged in a slave rebellion.

I would take the dividing line past the mere Confederacy, to say if your sole notoriety is racial brutality and oppression, or if your brutality is shocking to the conscience, we can remove your statue. Gone are Tillman and Hampton, Washington and Jefferson are fine. Wouldn't we be shocked to see a statue of Bull Connor? Sims has to go -- he is America's Mengele. Calhoun is a closer call.

There is a reason we say slavery was the original sin of America. For my entire life, I have been told that the remedy for sin is earnest repentance.

The military bases were named after Confederates in the Jim Crow era, to appease supporters of the Jim Crow system; so they were named after people who violated the Constitution, to appease those who continued to do so. To me that one is not a hard call at all.

So because my family listened to their friend, relative and spiritual leader, Richard Furman, they were evil brutes. But Furman is in the clear because he committed treason against the Crown and sort of started a Baptist organization. (He didn’t found FU.) No, that’s lawyerly bs. Gotta change the name if you REALLY buy into this nonsense.

By the way, you’ve got the Hampton-Tillman thing out of whack.Had Hampton and the Bourbons prevailed, there would have been no Tillmanite Jim Crowe era in SC.

Had Hampton and the Confederates prevailed in their treasonous fight against the U.S., the Tillman/Crowe era would have been even worse. Slavery and the torture of our black brothers and sisters would have continued on for many more years.

[Furmanoid]

As to slavery, I think what Furman did was appropriate. We need to be honest about what it was, and the impact it had. It wasn't as it was portrayed on "Gone with the Wind." It was brutal, and those who justified it were wrong. Those who supported it at the time knew or should have known it was wrong. Thomas Jefferson called it an "abominable crime" in the Declaration of Independence, and yet he didn't give up the economic advantages it gave him. That needs to be said. George Washington knew it was wrong -- he struggled with the institution, and he emancipated his slaves when he died. That colonists thought taxation without representation deserved a Revolution, declaring that an inalienable right endowed from our Creator was liberty, is telling.

The Confederacy lost the Civil War, but after 11 years of Reconstruction, it waged it again, through lynch mobs led by people like Ben Tillman. In South Carolina, gangs of Red Shirts engaged in systemic violence, murder and intimidation, to elect Wade Hampton Governor in 1876 -- then they had the gall to call themselves "Redeemers." What exactly were they redeeming? So, I don't have a problem with changing the name of the street, or the high school, or the mascot, or stopping them from wearing red uniforms. That is wholly different that Washington or Jefferson, or other founding fathers who, while flawed, contributed values and traditions we rely on today.

Richard Furman had some shaky theology on slavery, but he also helped create the Baptist Convention, founded a university, was important in the Revolution, etc. James C. Furman is famous for 2 things -- being President of a University and being a leading secessionist. I am fine with changing the building to reflect other family members who contributed more to our community. I also would be fine with naming the building after Dr. Harrell, for his work in integrating Greenville County Schools. Johnson Hagood's only notoriety is his command of Battery Wagner -- where he was notoriously brutal to the 54th Massachusetts, because he believed them to be engaged in a slave rebellion.

I would take the dividing line past the mere Confederacy, to say if your sole notoriety is racial brutality and oppression, or if your brutality is shocking to the conscience, we can remove your statue. Gone are Tillman and Hampton, Washington and Jefferson are fine. Wouldn't we be shocked to see a statue of Bull Connor? Sims has to go -- he is America's Mengele. Calhoun is a closer call.

There is a reason we say slavery was the original sin of America. For my entire life, I have been told that the remedy for sin is earnest repentance.

The military bases were named after Confederates in the Jim Crow era, to appease supporters of the Jim Crow system; so they were named after people who violated the Constitution, to appease those who continued to do so. To me that one is not a hard call at all.

So because my family listened to their friend, relative and spiritual leader, Richard Furman, they were evil brutes. But Furman is in the clear because he committed treason against the Crown and sort of started a Baptist organization. (He didn’t found FU.) No, that’s lawyerly bs. Gotta change the name if you REALLY buy into this nonsense.

By the way, you’ve got the Hampton-Tillman thing out of whack.Had Hampton and the Bourbons prevailed, there would have been no Tillmanite Jim Crowe era in SC.

Had Hampton and the Confederates prevailed in their treasonous fight against the U.S., the Tillman/Crowe era would have been even worse. Slavery and the torture of our black brothers and sisters would have continued on for many more years.

Had it not been for Richard Furman, Hampton would have had a small regiment of low country Episcopalians instead of a legion of Baptists. My great grandfather wouldn’t have been shot twice, and two of his brothers wouldn’t be in mass graves at Bull Run and Five Forks. And now the only marker bearing their names, the Sumter Confederate Memorial, is facing possible destruction, and Hampton, a moderate governor, will be wiped from history, but somehow it’s ok to honor the other guy. Please explain that logic.

[JohnW]

Important to remember we're talking about monuments maintained at the public's expense. While it is foolish in my opinion to judge people of a prior era by today's social justice standards, I don't think we should ask tax payers to fund symbols they find hateful. Preservation societies, museums, wherever are the place for these things.

[Furmanoid]

Important to remember we're talking about monuments maintained at the public's expense. While it is foolish in my opinion to judge people of a prior era by today's social justice standards, I don't think we should ask tax payers to fund symbols they find hateful. Preservation societies, museums, wherever are the place for these things.

True, but I think all we are talking about is weedeating. The SCV would take over if allowed to. Had the UDC known that there would ever be such a thing as tearing down memorials to dead soldiers, they would have purchased the ground as well as the monuments. But nobody would ever have envisioned such a thing. They are removing the flag from Magnolia Cemetery’s (Augusta)confederate section. Should they next take down the stones or stop cutting the grass? Then what? Dig up the offensive skeletons? This isn’t going to stop. It has already gone way beyond stupid.

[JohnW]

This is a hard issue for me. We in the south have always felt, been taught, that Confederate soldiers were and should be treated as equals to all American soldiers. Many of us have relatives that fought under that flag. We temporize the causes, not slavery, state's rights, most CSA soldiers didn't own slaves, states joined the union freely they should be able to leave freely, and so on. However, bottom line, eleven states rose in rebellion against the United States and the state's right they most wanted to protect was the right for one human being to own another. That vile institution and it's legacy has caused more damage to this country than anything else. It is justly called America's original sin. We need as a country to get by this, and if moving a few statues from public to private ownership is part of the remedy so be it.

One thing that helped me get past the romanticised vision of the south was the realization that many of these monuments and honors dated from the 20th century as an FU to the civil rights movement. I think that is important to consider.

[Roundball]

Asking again. How does removing a monument or taking a name off of a building erase history?

[Furmanoid]

Answering again: it doesn’t. It only hides it. For instance, once our local NA monument is gone, the community will forget that the Hamburg Massacre happened at all. The city’s plan for additional signage and monuments to put the existing monument in context will be dropped. And one will have to dig into the archives to learn that in 1916 it was socially acceptable to commemorate a mass murder with a monument. The ubiquitous confederate monuments show by their existence that there was a fascinating period in history when ladies would raise money to erect monuments to their fathers while sending their sons to fight for the US in Cuba or France.

I doubt you will find anyone involved in historic preservation of the built environment who really thinks monument destruction is cool (regardless of what they are forced to say by the neo-Stalinists).

Now, asking again, given your obvious strong feelings about the rightness of name changing, how can you possibly support an institution named for Richard Furman?

[Roundball]

Answering again: it doesn’t. It only hides it. For instance, once our local NA monument is gone, the community will forget that the Hamburg Massacre happened at all. The city’s plan for additional signage and monuments to put the existing monument in context will be dropped. And one will have to dig into the archives to learn that in 1916 it was socially acceptable to commemorate a mass murder with a monument. The ubiquitous confederate monuments show by their existence that there was a fascinating period in history when ladies would raise money to erect monuments to their fathers while sending their sons to fight for the US in Cuba or France.

I doubt you will find anyone involved in historic preservation of the built environment who really thinks monument destruction is cool (regardless of what they are forced to say by the neo-Stalinists).

Now, asking again, given your obvious strong feelings about the rightness of name changing, how can you possibly support an institution named for Richard Furman?

I don't think I've ever said all name changing is right. I don't ask the question, where do you stop with this? Heck, if I knew racism would end today if everything was changed, I would be all for it. But, there are too many southerners that think the war was a noble cause and too many that still think the black man is inferior for racism to end. Racism will only end in Heaven. I can understand how any person of color would be offended with anything having to do with enslaving and killing their ancestors. There are some that need to go, like Tillman, Calhoun, Wade Hampton and anyone that took up arms against our country. We have to remember when why most of the monuments were installed. They were not installed to honor the person, but to put our African American friends "in their place." Also, as a former Southern Baptist, I studied up on Rev. Richard Furman. He was horrible and embarrasing on the issue of slavery. However, the SBC has tried to make amends on his views and on slavery. So has Furman University. I did not attend Furman, but my son did. I remain proud to support the university and many of the athletic teams, especially basketball. By the way, my son attended Wade Hampton. He has already signed the petition to rename the school. Most of the former students that graduated in the last 10 years are for the change. This is a good time to remind everyone to read "The Mighty Generals", a story of basketball championships and racial unity in the deep south. The book is written by Furman basketball supporter Mike Chibbaro. Adults could learn some lessons on how a group of high school kids handled the issue of racism in 1970 and 1971. The book also goes into some good detail on the history of race relations in Greenville. It's a must read for all Greenvillians and all Furman basketball fans.

[Mr. Taggart]

You contend that eliminating the monument to the lynchings in Hamburg would erase history while calling Wade Hampton a "moderate." The Hamburg Massacre is a huge reason that Hampton won, by a mere 1100 votes. Hampton's supporters also lynched a black state Senator in 1876, shooting him in the head while he prayed.

The monuments aren't accurate. They memorialize fiction. I am all for remembering what happened, but it has to start with telling the truth. Should we watch "Birth of a Nation" because it is historical, or should we recognize it for what it is, racist propaganda? Many of those monuments, Hamburg included, were made at the same time, and for the same purpose.

Were the folks in Baghdad Stalinists for tearing down a statue of Hussein, with the help of the U.S. Army? Personally, I think we are smart enough to study history without lionizing bad people.

When Col. Robert Gould Shaw's, the Commander of the 54th Massachusetts Regiment (and second one made of African Americans) family asked for the return of his body following his death at Battery Wagner, Johnson Hagood reportedly said, "We buried him with his -------." Hagood ordered captured black Union soldiers to be killed, because they were in a slave insurrection. No state government owned facility should be named for a traitor and war criminal.

And slippery slope arguments are but a logical fallacy.

[Furmanoid]

Ok comrade.