Effort to rename Johnson Hagood Stadium

[Roundball]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

[Furmanoid]

The taking up arms against the US thing is being used as the main argument for renaming the forts. The link to slavery thing is used for other stuff like Penny Lane in Liverpool. I guess the song will have to go too. But in some places like NM they don’t have slavery or confederate stuff so conquistadors serve as a substitute. Lots of institutions have problems. Duke is named for a guy who killed untold millions.

[FUBeAR]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

[JohnW]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

We better hope not. Remember the founding document listed slaves as 2/3 of a person. The Constitution essentially codified slavery.

[Roundball]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

There was no Confederacy without slavery. IMHO, there would have been no Civil War had there not been slavery.

[FUBeAR]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

There was no Confederacy without slavery. IMHO, there would have been no Civil War had there not been slavery.

So...you’re saying the issue IS slavery. Thus, all references, monuments, memorials, street names, school names, etc. to Washington, Jefferson, Columbus (enslaved indigenous people), et al (including antebellum Rev. Furman) MUST BE EXPUNGED IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner.

Cool - FUBeAR needs to figure out how to monetize this transformation. Gotta run...

[Roundball]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

There was no Confederacy without slavery. IMHO, there would have been no Civil War had there not been slavery.

So...you’re saying the issue IS slavery. Thus, all references, monuments, memorials, street names, school names, etc. to Washington, Jefferson, Columbus (enslaved indigenous people), et al (including antebellum Rev. Furman) MUST BE EXPUNGED IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner.

Cool - FUBeAR needs to figure out how to monetize this transformation. Gotta run...

I guess I am saying that slavery, the confederacy, the Civil War, the KKK, the monuments, white nationalism and racism are all connected.

[Furmanoid]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

There was no Confederacy without slavery. IMHO, there would have been no Civil War had there not been slavery.

So...you’re saying the issue IS slavery. Thus, all references, monuments, memorials, street names, school names, etc. to Washington, Jefferson, Columbus (enslaved indigenous people), et al (including antebellum Rev. Furman) MUST BE EXPUNGED IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner.

Cool - FUBeAR needs to figure out how to monetize this transformation. Gotta run...

I guess I am saying that slavery, the confederacy, the Civil War, the KKK, the monuments, white nationalism and racism are all connected.

The point is that it is indefensible to support changing the name of Fort Bragg or the Citadel Stadium but not support changing the name of Washington DC or Furman U unless the name changing rules only apply to Confederates. I don’t think they do, so I guess we have to come up with a new name.
I’m ok with Mayes, Leonard or Felton.

[Stumpy]

Update from Charlottesville

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/uva-c ... index.html

Why would the designer of the logo go out of his way to include that detail in the handle when the ONLY significance that I can see (from the article) is that it referred to holding slaves? I don't get that at all.

Regarding the El Cid article:

"The Citadel has tried already to have the Confederate flag removed from Summerall Chapel."
I'm willing to bet that at least one of the bellhops can get their hands on a lighter....

[fufanatic]

I personally think that there is a difference between our Founding Fathers, who flawed as they were, laid the groundwork for a different type of country and fought to create it, and U.S. citizens who took up arms against their own country, killing thousands of U.S. citizens, and watching (and participating) as free black people were murdered relentlessly after the war ended. I'm fine starting with limiting the celebration of Confederate folks and continuing to discuss the best possible way to help tell a more accurate story about our Founding Fathers.

[FUBeAR]

Our guy was Revolutionary War, not the Confederacy. We should be okay.

True, but after the war his views on slavery became quite influential, including his 1822 "Exposition of the Views of the Baptists Relative to the Coloured Population of the United States", which, according to the Wikipedia article, "set out the arguments that Southerners would use to defend slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (1865) finally put an end to slavery in the United States." So, not sure anything is OK on this front.

My point is he did not take up arms against the United States. They'll have to get Clemson first, their guy not only owned slaves but moved back to SC from Maryland to join the Confederate army. I'm just saying Furman is down the list a bit on having a naming issue.

Don’t you think the debate is more about views on slavery than taking up arms against our country?

Is it slavery or is it the Confederacy?

Because if it’s slavery - there will soon be some sweet demolition / construction project contracts to be had in our soon-to-be-renamed nation’s capital. Do people still use maps/atlases/globes? If they do, I guess the new state in the PNW, ChazChop perhaps, will need to be shown & the new capital of Missouri, MichaelBrown City, maybe, will need to be in there as well.

...just for starters.

There was no Confederacy without slavery. IMHO, there would have been no Civil War had there not been slavery.

So...you’re saying the issue IS slavery. Thus, all references, monuments, memorials, street names, school names, etc. to Washington, Jefferson, Columbus (enslaved indigenous people), et al (including antebellum Rev. Furman) MUST BE EXPUNGED IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner.

Cool - FUBeAR needs to figure out how to monetize this transformation. Gotta run...

I guess I am saying that slavery, the confederacy, the Civil War, the KKK, the monuments, white nationalism and racism are all connected.

The point is that it is indefensible to support changing the name of Fort Bragg or the Citadel Stadium but not support changing the name of Washington DC or Furman U unless the name changing rules only apply to Confederates. I don’t think they do, so I guess we have to come up with a new name.
I’m ok with Mayes, Leonard or Felton.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! (if your goal is expunging ‘stuff’ cuz of slavery)

Don’t get FUBeAR wrong though.

Even as a son of the South; who read every biography of General Robert E. Lee in every library at every school (except Furman) I attended; who grew up mirthfully traipsing the terrain of Bentonville Battleground, NC, imagining myself as cunning & as dashing as General James Ewell Brown (JEB) Stuart; a FUBeAR who gave one of his children a middle name in honor of a Confederate hero, I’m perfectly OK with erasing every last vestige of that ‘great unpleasantness’ of the Confederacy from our sights & memories. And, yes, I had family on Mama FUBeAR’s side that wore the gray & died wearing it in battle. Doubt, being poor dirt farmers from the sand hills of NC’s Coastal Plain, that they were slave-owners though.

Honestly. It’s time. The “Lost Cause” is truly lost. Flush it - move forward.

...But, trying to eradicate the memory of 11,000 years (not 400, NYT & Tim Caine) of the quite common global (and HEINOUS) institution of slavery, requires ‘cancelling’ everything from the Code of Hammurabi, out of Mesopotamia, to the end of the civil war. Really, beyond, but...work with me, here. By the way, current pop hero, Alexander Hamilton, has to go too. Don’t believe me? Check out his in-laws and his tacit approval/acceptance. Now, if we also decide to ‘cancel’ every vestige of racism past in that noble effort, the litmus test results just became all kinds of shades of purple...and, as I’ve heard too many say, just “burn it all down!”

It’s simply a fool’s errand. No other way to describe it.

Do you not think we are living in a time when fools will attempt to do this? Reading numerous times in recent weeks, that “Silence = Murder,” was enough to convince me. Heck, I’m the guy who has argued against the validity of the much less inflammatory, oft-used corporate phrase of “Perception = Reality” my entire career. When I saw the popularity of this new alternate reality, completely fallacious construct taking hold, I knew our society had crossed over to the other side of the nylon pool rope.

Have at it, peeps. Erase & expunge at will.

I just wish we’d use all of that Herculean energy on addressing the issue of current racism. It’s real. It sucks. It’s with us & in front of us. A one-armed man fightin’ yellow jackets gets stung a lot. We need 2 arms & hands focused on the present & the future.

[FurmAlum]

While I support black people's anger over the recent police shootings and general racism in general that has existed too long, I think all this hysteria about renaming military bases, stadiums, logo's, etc. is the stupidest thing I have heard or seen in a long time.

Heck, I didn't even know Ft. Bragg was named after a Confederate General until now, and I bet a majority of the U.S. population didn't know or care either. The bottom line is you can't change what happened in history and trying to rewrite it is like FUBeAR said, "a fools errand". (And I believe like he does that there is no shortage of fools that will try to do it.

I have distant relatives, and my wife does too, that fought for the Confederacy, and some on her side died in the Civil War. Do we care about the Confederate States of America now? No, we've moved on, but we can't change what happened 150 years ago and I'm not going to apologize for it.

P.S. As for you Yankees in the South...I-85, I-95, I-77, and I-65 runs north, too.

[Roundball]

While I support black people's anger over the recent police shootings and general racism in general that has existed too long, I think all this hysteria about renaming military bases, stadiums, logo's, etc. is the stupidest thing I have heard or seen in a long time.

Heck, I didn't even know Ft. Bragg was named after a Confederate General until now, and I bet a majority of the U.S. population didn't know or care either. The bottom line is you can't change what happened in history and trying to rewrite it is like FUBeAR said, "a fools errand". (And I believe like he does that there is no shortage of fools that will try to do it.

I have distant relatives, and my wife does too, that fought for the Confederacy, and some on her side died in the Civil War. Do we care about the Confederate States of America now? No, we've moved on, but we can't change what happened 150 years ago and I'm not going to apologize for it.

P.S. As for you Yankees in the South...I-85, I-95, I-77, and I-65 runs north, too.

How does taking down a monument or renaming a building change or rewrite history?

[Furmanoid]

While I support black people's anger over the recent police shootings and general racism in general that has existed too long, I think all this hysteria about renaming military bases, stadiums, logo's, etc. is the stupidest thing I have heard or seen in a long time.

Heck, I didn't even know Ft. Bragg was named after a Confederate General until now, and I bet a majority of the U.S. population didn't know or care either. The bottom line is you can't change what happened in history and trying to rewrite it is like FUBeAR said, "a fools errand". (And I believe like he does that there is no shortage of fools that will try to do it.

I have distant relatives, and my wife does too, that fought for the Confederacy, and some on her side died in the Civil War. Do we care about the Confederate States of America now? No, we've moved on, but we can't change what happened 150 years ago and I'm not going to apologize for it.

P.S. As for you Yankees in the South...I-85, I-95, I-77, and I-65 runs north, too.

How does taking down a monument or renaming a building change or rewrite history?

Perhaps obscuring history is a better way to say it. Tomorrow I will go and watch a monument protest here in North Augusta. Ours has a twist. In 1876 there was a battle between a black “militia” and a much larger group of whites who were later known as Red Shirts. During the skirmish one white was killed. After the skirmish, 6 of the black prisoners were murdered. This incident would alter the course of state and US history. In 1916 a bunch of old ladies put up a nice looking obelisk dedicated to the dead white guy. Unfortunately it also says that he died defending the supremacy of Anglo-Saxon civilization. (This may have been an early failed attempt at political correctness). Driving past it every day is unavoidable, but probably 99% of people who have ever lived in NA either never read the inscription or couldn’t figure out what it was talking about.
But a couple of years ago the demands to tear it down began because it somehow started causing psychic damage to people. A more vocal and less civil pro monument group has sprouted up because the monument they never read means so much to them and their heritage. I just think it’s a pretty monument and removing it would make the park look stupid.

If we take it down (which some including FU grad city attorney says may violate state law) then we eliminate the only reminder of the most important historical event in Aiken or Edgefield history- an event that determined the outcome of a presidential election. If we keep it up we offend a small but rapidly growing segment of the population. If we chip off the inscription, that might help, but then you eliminate a data point that takes us into the mindset of 1916 NA. You really whitewash the incident.

City Council decided to put together a committee (of course) to develop a plan to add monuments honoring the slain black men along with some sort of signage to fully explain the Hamburg Massacre (or Riot) and put the original monument in context. But 2 years later they haven’t done anything. So tomorrow’s protest will be interesting.

[Mr. Taggart]

As to slavery, I think what Furman did was appropriate. We need to be honest about what it was, and the impact it had. It wasn't as it was portrayed on "Gone with the Wind." It was brutal, and those who justified it were wrong. Those who supported it at the time knew or should have known it was wrong. Thomas Jefferson called it an "abominable crime" in the Declaration of Independence, and yet he didn't give up the economic advantages it gave him. That needs to be said. George Washington knew it was wrong -- he struggled with the institution, and he emancipated his slaves when he died. That colonists thought taxation without representation deserved a Revolution, declaring that an inalienable right endowed from our Creator was liberty, is telling.

The Confederacy lost the Civil War, but after 11 years of Reconstruction, it waged it again, through lynch mobs led by people like Ben Tillman. In South Carolina, gangs of Red Shirts engaged in systemic violence, murder and intimidation, to elect Wade Hampton Governor in 1876 -- then they had the gall to call themselves "Redeemers." What exactly were they redeeming? So, I don't have a problem with changing the name of the street, or the high school, or the mascot, or stopping them from wearing red uniforms. That is wholly different that Washington or Jefferson, or other founding fathers who, while flawed, contributed values and traditions we rely on today.

Richard Furman had some shaky theology on slavery, but he also helped create the Baptist Convention, founded a university, was important in the Revolution, etc. James C. Furman is famous for 2 things -- being President of a University and being a leading secessionist. I am fine with changing the building to reflect other family members who contributed more to our community. I also would be fine with naming the building after Dr. Harrell, for his work in integrating Greenville County Schools. Johnson Hagood's only notoriety is his command of Battery Wagner -- where he was notoriously brutal to the 54th Massachusetts, because he believed them to be engaged in a slave rebellion.

I would take the dividing line past the mere Confederacy, to say if your sole notoriety is racial brutality and oppression, or if your brutality is shocking to the conscience, we can remove your statue. Gone are Tillman and Hampton, Washington and Jefferson are fine. Wouldn't we be shocked to see a statue of Bull Connor? Sims has to go -- he is America's Mengele. Calhoun is a closer call.

There is a reason we say slavery was the original sin of America. For my entire life, I have been told that the remedy for sin is earnest repentance.

The military bases were named after Confederates in the Jim Crow era, to appease supporters of the Jim Crow system; so they were named after people who violated the Constitution, to appease those who continued to do so. To me that one is not a hard call at all.