Jackie Carson

[apaladin]

I know there is not much interest in women's basketball but following todays loss to 3-10 D2 North Greenville I was just thinking it may be time for FU to go in a different direction. She has been here 8 years and has a .500 record. Thoughts?

[Affirm]

She is a Furman alumna, a great former player for Furman, and is married to a Furman assistant AD. Looking in a different direction may not be the thing to do, at least not yet. Losing to a 3-10 D-2 team is bad. Who knows what happened? Coach Carson has had 3 good years , and none of her 8 years has been worse than 12-18 (2012-13). 8-8 so far this year, including wins over CofC and UNCA plus a “good showing” against USC. Unless there are other issues, my thought is give her the rest of this season and also next season to see if she’ll end up with a winning record this year and/or next before starting to think about a “different direction”. Wait until this time next year, at least.
Unless things begin appearing to go greatly worse, I would actually say wait until she has had 10 years. Women’s basketball, with a coach of high character, has many good benefits for Furman that overshadow any coach’s W-L record. Women’s basketball does not have the same level of PR impact that men’s basketball does - and I am being realistic, not sexist, when I say that.

[fufanatic]

She is a Furman alumna, a great former player for Furman, and is married to a Furman assistant AD. Looking in a different direction may not be the thing to do, at least not yet. Losing to a 3-10 D-2 team is bad. Who knows what happened? Coach Carson has had 3 good years , and none of her 8 years has been worse than 12-18 (2012-13). 8-8 so far this year, including wins over CofC and UNCA plus a “good showing” against USC. Unless there are other issues, my thought is give her the rest of this season and also next season to see if she’ll end up with a winning record this year and/or next before starting to think about a “different direction”. Wait until this time next year, at least.
Unless things begin appearing to go greatly worse, I would actually say wait until she has had 10 years. Women’s basketball, with a coach of high character, has many good benefits for Furman that overshadow any coach’s W-L record. Women’s basketball does not have the same level of PR impact that men’s basketball does - and I am being realistic, not sexist, when I say that.

That tends to be my thought as well. She seems like a remarkable person, she's an all-time great at Furman, and they are mostly competitive every year. As long as she's graduating players, running a clean program and competing occasionally, that works for me. The question I always think of is ... what's the peak for a women's hoops team at Furman? Even those great Chattanooga teams never advanced past I believe the second round. It's a hard sport to crack into. Parody is getting better, but still pretty much chalk for much of tournament.

[Jasper]

I know there is not much interest in women's basketball but following todays loss to 3-10 D2 North Greenville I was just thinking it may be time for FU to go in a different direction. She has been here 8 years and has a .500 record. Thoughts?

As at most schools, women's BB does not get the support or interest that the men's program does. That is just a fact. The many reasons for that does not really matter. I certainly do not think that Jackie Carson is the second coming of Geno Auriemma but to suggest that "it may be time for FU to go in a different direction" because of a loss to D-2 North Greenville is patently ridiculous. Coach Carson is one of the finest young women I have ever had the opportunity to know. She runs a clean, competitive program and functions very well within the constraints of the overall FU attitude towards sports and academics. Her players graduate and are a credit to the university. The Mentor Program she initiated enables her girls to receive guidance from outstanding women in the Greenville community as they transition from high school to college and then onto career paths. In so many ways, she helps them to become women capable of succeeding and contributing to society in their lives after basketball. She and her family are integral parts of the Furman community and should be valued and respected. She makes the overall experience of representing Furman in basketball a very rewarding one for these young ladies. So, they played poorly in yesterday's game and lost to a team they probably should not have. Does that really matter?

[Affirm]

Told me things I did not know. Previously I wrote against "going in a different direction" unless things got a lot worse and until at least 1 or 2 more years. Having read what Jasper wrote, I would say give her even more leeway than I said. Take it very slow in making any decision about getting rid of her. At the same time, I will say that she needs to acknowledge that losing to a 3-10 D-2 team is very bad, and she needs to indicate that she plans to improve on that sort of situation.

[fufanatic]

And if we are talking purely about wins and losses, I would again ask ... what do we expect from a women's program at the SoCon level? I just looked at the conference media guide, and the league has exactly one win in the NCAA Tournament since 1989. That was UTC in 2004. And they lost in the second round. Hell, there's only been 7 wins in the WNIT since 2000. And only one win in the second round. And I'm pretty sure there's no shares divided out to the league and school for appearances and wins in the NCAA women's tourney like in the men's. So for all the reasons mentioned above, as long as we are competitive, there's really no need to make a change ever.

[paladinfan12]

I believe Niko lost a bad game to someone terrible (Non-D1) when he was here in his second year. We're all glad he didn't get fired.

[Flagman]

And if we are talking purely about wins and losses, I would again ask ... what do we expect from a women's program at the SoCon level? I just looked at the conference media guide, and the league has exactly one win in the NCAA Tournament since 1989. That was UTC in 2004. And they lost in the second round. Hell, there's only been 7 wins in the WNIT since 2000. And only one win in the second round. And I'm pretty sure there's no shares divided out to the league and school for appearances and wins in the NCAA women's tourney like in the men's. So for all the reasons mentioned above, as long as we are competitive, there's really no need to make a change ever.

I believe we should hold all of our teams to the same expectations, whatever that is. We don’t seem to be satisfied with sports-for-fun, and we shouldn’t. If we place winning as our top standard (football & men’s basketball), then it should apply across the board (golf, tennis, softball, baseball, lacrosse, women’s basketball, track, cross country). A quality sports team certainly involves winning, graduation rates, and character building. Others?

[youwouldno]

I'm just not sure how realistic it is for Furman to really excel at women's basketball. The competitive landscape within D-I varies a lot for different sports . . . all teams should certainly be held to a high overall standard, but from a wins and losses standpoint, you can't ignore the context.

[fufanatic]

And if we are talking purely about wins and losses, I would again ask ... what do we expect from a women's program at the SoCon level? I just looked at the conference media guide, and the league has exactly one win in the NCAA Tournament since 1989. That was UTC in 2004. And they lost in the second round. Hell, there's only been 7 wins in the WNIT since 2000. And only one win in the second round. And I'm pretty sure there's no shares divided out to the league and school for appearances and wins in the NCAA women's tourney like in the men's. So for all the reasons mentioned above, as long as we are competitive, there's really no need to make a change ever.

I believe we should hold all of our teams to the same expectations, whatever that is. We don’t seem to be satisfied with sports-for-fun, and we shouldn’t. If we place winning as our top standard (football & men’s basketball), then it should apply across the board (golf, tennis, softball, baseball, lacrosse, women’s basketball, track, cross country). A quality sports team certainly involves winning, graduation rates, and character building. Others?

I agree, but like youwouldno says, I don't know how realistic it is for us to be elite in women's hoops. Same with baseball and probably track and field (with the obvious exception of the distance events). Every other sport we are very competitive in ... lacrosse still has some work to do ... but football, men's hoops, both soccers, tennis, golf, cross country, volleyball. Again, if women's hoops is consistently in the top half of the league, is graduating players and doing good things in the community with a hall of fame alum at the helm, there is no need to rock the boat. Even if we got to the level of Chattanooga for all those years, we more than likely would be one and done in the NCAAs anyway.

Edited to add ... I would hardly call women's hoops a sports-for-fun example. Since 2010-11, they've finished middle of the pack or better in the SoCon every year. Only one elite year - finished 2nd in 2013-14 - but certainly not at the bottom of the pack. I would expect us to be a bit better in the league, but oh well.

[Affirm]

I would say that many schools have different expectations for different sports at a given school and that it is legitimate and acceptable to have that philosophy. There are various factors to take into consideration, and the importance of each factor can vary by sport. I would say there are basic standards for every sport at Furman, in order for Furman to continue, value, and take pride in having each sport. Winning at a certain level applicable to all sports is not one of those standards. This does not have to mean that the individual sports themselves, or their coaches, or their players (or family, supporters, fans) are “less important” than others.

[Jasper]

Told me things I did not know. Previously I wrote against "going in a different direction" unless things got a lot worse and until at least 1 or 2 more years. Having read what Jasper wrote, I would say give her even more leeway than I said. Take it very slow in making any decision about getting rid of her. At the same time, I will say that she needs to acknowledge that losing to a 3-10 D-2 team is very bad, and she needs to indicate that she plans to improve on that sort of situation.

I can tell you that she was distraught over that loss and very upset with her team. The 3 point shot has changed college BB a great deal; whether it be men or women's games. We could not hit the side of a barn from 3 and they had 2 girls have career shooting games. It happens - especially when the talent level is approximately the same. The level of athleticism in women's BB drops off dramatically from the top tier major level to the mid majors and beyond. There are just not as many really good women BB players as there is in the men's game. Take the U of Georgia for example. They are a middle of the pack team in the SEC in both the men and women's teams. Our men's team would definitely give them a good game and very possibly beat them. They are fairly well matched from a talent standpoint. Our girls didn't belong on the same court and got blown out by about 40 points as I recall. Huge difference in size, athleticism, etc. As someone pointed out, the SoCon winner usually leaves the tourney in round one and usually by a healthy margin. Jackie Carson does a good job with the level of player she is able to recruit and I know she works tirelessly in that endeavor. What she really needs to do is to find another Jackie Carson and get her here.

[fufanatic]

Told me things I did not know. Previously I wrote against "going in a different direction" unless things got a lot worse and until at least 1 or 2 more years. Having read what Jasper wrote, I would say give her even more leeway than I said. Take it very slow in making any decision about getting rid of her. At the same time, I will say that she needs to acknowledge that losing to a 3-10 D-2 team is very bad, and she needs to indicate that she plans to improve on that sort of situation.

I can tell you that she was distraught over that loss and very upset with her team. The 3 point shot has changed college BB a great deal; whether it be men or women's games. We could not hit the side of a barn from 3 and they had 2 girls have career shooting games. It happens - especially when the talent level is approximately the same. The level of athleticism in women's BB drops off dramatically from the top tier major level to the mid majors and beyond. There are just not as many really good women BB players as there is in the men's game. Take the U of Georgia for example. They are a middle of the pack team in the SEC in both the men and women's teams. Our men's team would definitely give them a good game and very possibly beat them. They are fairly well matched from a talent standpoint. Our girls didn't belong on the same court and got blown out by about 40 points as I recall. Huge difference in size, athleticism, etc. As someone pointed out, the SoCon winner usually leaves the tourney in round one and usually by a healthy margin. Jackie Carson does a good job with the level of player she is able to recruit and I know she works tirelessly in that endeavor. What she really needs to do is to find another Jackie Carson and get her here.

I'll admit that I don't follow the women's game closely, but it does surprise me how non-competitive a good portion of the match-ups are and the difference in talent from the elite schools to even the lower top 25 teams. I would have to think that more women are playing basketball today than at any time in history. And there's AAU and other leagues growing up. At some point will the talent begin to trickle down a little bit more?

[MidlandsPaladin]

FWIW, the ladies currently have a better SoCon record than the men...

[sluggo]

I know there is not much interest in women's basketball but following todays loss to 3-10 D2 North Greenville I was just thinking it may be time for FU to go in a different direction. She has been here 8 years and has a .500 record. Thoughts?

Makes sense only if Dick had quit after the Newberry loss.