The Unofficial Furman Football Page

Down to a 4 team race with lots of football left.
WCU 3-0 to play: FU, MU, @WC, ETSU, @VMI
FU. 2-0 to play: @SU, @WCU, ETSU, @UTC, VMI, @WC
UTC 3-1 to play: @MU, ETSU, @VMI, FU
MU 2-1 UTC, WC, @WCU, @CIT, SU
Road to the championship: only WCU and FU contol their own destiny, others need help.
WCU- controls their own destiny, they have the most direct line to the championship. It’s pretty simple if they beat FU next week it would be their’s to lose. Even if they lose to MU the following week, they still most likely would win the SoCon as they would have the tiebreaker over, UTC & FU and MU woukd have to run the table. After MU, WCU only has 3 bottom feeders left.
FU-controls it’s own destiny. Even with a loss at SU the Paladins will still control their own destiny by winning out but must win at WCU and UTC. They MUST win at WCU next week, if they don’t WCU pretty much has the title sewn up as stated above.
UTC- They need some help, they need to win out and hope WCU loses twice.
MU-They need some help. they too need to win out and FU loses twice.

Biggest game tomorrow: UTC at Mercer- loser is eliminated in all reality.

Just a note that the SoCon title, which can be shared, is different from the SoCon autobid.

If teams are tied with the same record at the top of the conference, they share in the title.

There are some weird tie-breakers as well that are not totally clear (at least to me). A 3-way tie with the top-3 teams all losing to one another is certainly not out of the question. Assuming they have identical records (let's say 9-2) I thnk you have to go down to the 4th or 5th tiebreaker that vaguely references total points given up between the 3 teams, but does not say if that is for the season or in the games against each other or for all conference games. It will all probably work itself out, but it won't be surprising if there isn't a need to go to the rulebook.

Jackal or FUBeAR - I would venture you guys know those intricacies better than most. If two teams are tied at 7-1, the autobid I assume goes to whoever won their head-to-head. If 3 teams are tied (7-1, 6-2, or whatever) what is the next tiebreaker for the autobid? And in both of those cases, it sounds like all the teams would all be considered co or tri-champs so they can each get rings, sell t-shirts, etc.???

IIRC it came down to a coin toss a few years ago.

wcugrad95 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:49 pm

There are some weird tie-breakers as well that are not totally clear (at least to me). A 3-way tie with the top-3 teams all losing to one another is certainly not out of the question. Assuming they have identical records (let's say 9-2) I thnk you have to go down to the 4th or 5th tiebreaker that vaguely references total points given up between the 3 teams, but does not say if that is for the season or in the games against each other or for all conference games. It will all probably work itself out, but it won't be surprising if there isn't a need to go to the rulebook.

Jackal or FUBeAR - I would venture you guys know those intricacies better than most. If two teams are tied at 7-1, the autobid I assume goes to whoever won their head-to-head. If 3 teams are tied (7-1, 6-2, or whatever) what is the next tiebreaker for the autobid? And in both of those cases, it sounds like all the teams would all be considered co or tri-champs so they can each get rings, sell t-shirts, etc.???

The rule is here: https://static.soconsports.com/custompa ... otball.pdf

Interestingly, the tie breakers have gotten pretty complicated a few times in the last 10 years, both times involving Furman.

The second tie breaker beyond head to head matchups against the "highest seeded team not involved in the tie" is considered.

In 2013, Furman was the SoCon autobid after three teams tied for first place (Furman, UTC, Samford). Each was 1-1 against the other two. Furman had even lost to Elon, who finished second to last. Furman, however, had beaten all the other teams (Georgia Southern, App, Wofford, etc.), which UTC and Samford had not done. Furman was the autobid and, I think, UTC was left home from the playoffs as a conference champ.

In 2018, Furman again ended up in a 3-way tie with ETSU and Wofford. All three were 1-1 against each other. Interestingly, that season, all three teams had lost to the same other team - Samford. So, tied against each other and had identical records against every other team in the conference. Then it went to "fewest points allowed."

I remember in 2018 Furman was playing Mercer at the end of the season. Furman not only had to beat Mercer, but, I think, had to hold the Bears to under 18 points to win the tie breaker. Furman beat Mercer, won a share of the title by doing so, but did not win the tie breaker (Mercer scored 30 that game). Furman was the team left home that post season as a conference champion.

I had looked that up before. Let's say we have a Furman team that lost to WCU but beat Mercer, a Mercer team that lost to Furman but beat WCU. All 3 beat all the other SOCON teams. All 3 finish 7-1/9-2. I think that goes down to the 2018 scenario you described. The rule doesn't really say how the total points are calculated. Is that for the entire season? all the SOCON games? or just the games that were between the 3 teams? Given you said it mattered in 2018 based on what happened with Mercer, I am guessing it is either all SOCON games or the entire season.

From the rule, it gets down to:
"If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered"

So I am guessing total points for the entire year.

I know you need a system to break ties but I’ve never really understood

Why punish a tied team who loses by 1 to a quality team near the top of the standings - and reward a team that loses to a bottom dweller?

In re to points allowed all games: Why punish a team that holds an SEC team to 21 points and reward a team that shuts out a DII (or lower) team?

Can’t go by points scored or scoring margin as that prompts teams to run up the score. I hate to use any computer or “expert” ranking.

If it were up to me it would be least points allowed in the head to head matches of the 3 or more tied teams. If still tied used points allowed in all SOCON games.

wcugrad95 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:05 pm

I had looked that up before. Let's say we have a Furman team that lost to WCU but beat Mercer, a Mercer team that lost to Furman but beat WCU. All 3 beat all the other SOCON teams. All 3 finish 7-1/9-2. I think that goes down to the 2018 scenario you described. The rule doesn't really say how the total points are calculated. Is that for the entire season? all the SOCON games? or just the games that were between the 3 teams? Given you said it mattered in 2018 based on what happened with Mercer, I am guessing it is either all SOCON games or the entire season.

From the rule, it gets down to:
"If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered"

So I am guessing total points for the entire year.

I can't remember. The language is vague, but was applied in 2018.

You can probably look at the 2018 and figure out the correct answer, which gave, I think, Wofford the autobid.

wcugrad95 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:49 pm

There are some weird tie-breakers as well that are not totally clear (at least to me). A 3-way tie with the top-3 teams all losing to one another is certainly not out of the question. Assuming they have identical records (let's say 9-2) I thnk you have to go down to the 4th or 5th tiebreaker that vaguely references total points given up between the 3 teams, but does not say if that is for the season or in the games against each other or for all conference games. It will all probably work itself out, but it won't be surprising if there isn't a need to go to the rulebook.

Jackal or FUBeAR - I would venture you guys know those intricacies better than most. If two teams are tied at 7-1, the autobid I assume goes to whoever won their head-to-head. If 3 teams are tied (7-1, 6-2, or whatever) what is the next tiebreaker for the autobid? And in both of those cases, it sounds like all the teams would all be considered co or tri-champs so they can each get rings, sell t-shirts, etc.???

You mention a 9-2 record. While that definitely applies to making playoffs ( like Furman beating TTU and KSU. OOC). that is not relevant to SoCon aspirations.

Only conference games , obviously, apply yo SOCON race, And Jackal pointed out, a SoCon champ and autobid are usually the same but not always. 3 teams could have. a SoCon title (shared and all get rings!) but there is only one autobid to playoffs. In reality, if three teams tied for conference champ usually two would get in playoffs. The auto bid captain obvious. And then the committee would select one or both of the others. After the autobid… as I am sure you know …. It’s all up to the committee and OOC is very important - it’s all about rankings and perceptions at that point.

Even the autobid, while in playoffs, needs ranking for a seed or bye

The Jackal wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:34 pm

wcugrad95 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:05 pm

I had looked that up before. Let's say we have a Furman team that lost to WCU but beat Mercer, a Mercer team that lost to Furman but beat WCU. All 3 beat all the other SOCON teams. All 3 finish 7-1/9-2. I think that goes down to the 2018 scenario you described. The rule doesn't really say how the total points are calculated. Is that for the entire season? all the SOCON games? or just the games that were between the 3 teams? Given you said it mattered in 2018 based on what happened with Mercer, I am guessing it is either all SOCON games or the entire season.

From the rule, it gets down to:
"If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered"

So I am guessing total points for the entire year.

I can't remember. The language is vague, but was applied in 2018.

You can probably look at the 2018 and figure out the correct answer, which gave, I think, Wofford the autobid.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story ... 031314002/

The tiebreaker centered on which of the three teams allowed the fewest points in conference games.

Thanks FUBeAR! It makes a lot more sense to have it be SOCON games only.

And to gofurman yes - I put 7-1 in there as well to show conference games. In my scenario the SOCON could have 3 teams at 7-1/9-2. But it also isn’t out of the realm of possibility we could have 3 or even 4 teams (if Samford somehow won out) at 6-2/8-3. The first scenario all 3 SOCON teams make the playoffs. The second scenario my bet would be no more than 2.