Assessing the SoCon, post realignment

[Michael in Raleigh]

Hello all. My name is Michael. I'm an App State alum, a Greenville native whose brother got married under the Bell tower, a husband to an Elon grad, a brother to a C of Charleston grad/Citadel Master's program, a cousin to a Georgia Southern grad, and brother in law to a UNCG grad. Based on my and my family's history, I still remain interested in the SoCon six years after my wife's and my alma maters left the league. A mentor of mine while I was in high school played for Furman at that time, so I've long had Furman as my second (now first) favorite team in the SoCon.

What I'm interested in is how you feel about how the league responded after the five schools left in 2013/2014. Basketball across the league, it should go without saying, has responded with very impressive success. The SoCon has surpassed two of the leagues (the CAA and the Sun Belt) that poached from it in NET rankings in at least the past two seasons. And I will add that I do miss the regional rivalries the SoCon provided for basketball and non revenue sports.

What about football? I know the losses of Georgia Southern and App State hit hard. Elon I suppose didn't hurt too bad. Haha. How do you feel about the schools that replaced those three? I think of it as ETSU replacing App; Mercer replacing GSU; and VMI replacing Elon. Honestly I think Mercer and ETSU are doing a pretty good job in resurrecting their programs. The one I wonder if the league had to do over would be VMI. I know all about the history of VMI in the conference and the fit they have with The Citadel, but athletically were they not an unnecessary step even further backwards after losing two of the strongest FCS/1-AA programs in the country? I cannot help but wonder if the SoCon in 2013 should have instead invited Kennesaw State or Coastal Carolina to bolster football. (If you disagree, feel free to explain why I'm wrong.)

Additionally, how have the remaining programs stepped up? How can teams in the SoCon compete with the JMU's and NDSU's again? I would be thrilled if Furman returns to those great teams around the late 90's to 2005. My friend actually played for Furman in the '01 championship game. Can Coach Hendrix bring Furman back to that level?

I just would really love to see the SoCon return to its perch as one of the best, if not THE best, conferences in FCS.

[paladinfan12]

I think you probably said it best. Basketball has really responded well, football not so much. I would've much rather taken Kennesaw over VMI in hindsight. I don't think the SoCon will get back to its power house status until more schools out of conference like JMU and NDSU jump to FBS, OR the larger state schools in the SoCon can sustain a successful FCS program. The Chattanooga's, WCU's, and ETSU's simply have more potential resources to elevate their program. The Big 10 doesn't rely on Northwestern, the SEC doesn't rely on Vanderbilt, and the SoCon shouldn't have to rely on Furman and Wofford to provide quality FCS football.

[apaladin]

You are correct about VMI. That was probably a mistake, no it was a mistake. There were better choices out there. I blame it on the former commish who just went for the easy fix. Remember VMI left the SoCon because it could not compete. Not much has changed. I just don’t ever see them being competitive on a routine basis. I think Mercer and ETSU were good additions to replace GSU and ASU but doubt either will reach the level of the previous 2. New head coach Drew Cronic could make Mercer very good and ETSU has potential with their size and support. For Furman at least one recruiting service has ranked this year’s Furman recruiting class either 1 or 2 in FCS so there is hope. I know FU has expanded their recruiting area into Texas to Illinois and Ohio etc. Your family must be a riot at Christmas time, lol.

[The Jackal]

You would have surprised me (and a lot of folks) in saying that the SoCon could lost Davidson and CofC and get better in basketball. I think that's absolutely true, though. The league is much deeper and much more competitive. A lot of that owes to talented coaches that have taken over some of these programs.

With football, it's a tough read. The college football landscape is just so different now than it was 15-20 years ago. National relevance has been difficult for the SoCon to regain as the power has begun to shift to the midwest. The SoCon needs a strong Furman, though, and I think we are getting back there. It will never be "the same," though.

I don't think anyone would miss VMI. It frankly would not surprise me to see VMI go the way of Presbyterian and drop to non-scholarship football. They bring very little to the SoCon's table - are bad in just about every sport - and are the longest road trip for nearly every school in the conference.

[Affirm]

One problem the SoCon has is with scheduling opponents. Furman has difficulty getting good OOC home basketball opponents. Having more teams in the conference (most are not coming back, but hopefully CofC might) would at least provide 2 more games per each additional school. I have mentioned in another thread that it would be good if the SoCon would add CofC plus UNCW and Winthrop. I have been opposed on that, but my opinion has not changed. The other possibilities do not seem as appealing, such as Gardner-Webb, Charleston Southern, Radford, and Kennesaw State (they would leave for FBS after a short while in the SoCon). I can think of no other possibilities. Some Alabama and Tennessee schools might be appealing to some, but they do not seem like good possibilities to me. It would be great to get Elon, Richmond, or W&M back, but I do not see that being of interest to any of those 3 schools.
I happen to think the loss of Davidson was a very big negative for the SoCon. Davidson is rated as one of the very best liberal arts colleges in the nation, and that academic status added to the overall status of the SoCon.
I happen to think the loss of CofC was a very big negative for the SoCon.
By the way, football scheduling is also not easy for Furman, as shown by us playing Point University as our final game in 2019. Of course, adding CofC, UNCW, and Winthrop would not help that, except indirectly. It could help indirectly by making the SoCon richer and more prestigious overall, giving the SoCon more clout in dealing with certain other conferences for help with our scheduling of football opponents from those conferences. Likewise is true if Davidson came back to SoCon but stayed in Pioneer League for football (doubt the SoCon would accept that stipulation, but it's maybe possible in order to get them for all the other sports).

[Roundball]

The biggest impact to the SoCon has been football attendance and excitement of the games. Ga.Southern and Appy fans travel well. It was so much fun playing those teams. No present SoCon team comes close to bringing great fan support that help create an exciting environment and revenue to our athletic department. The glory days of SoCon football are gone forever, never to return.

[Michael in Raleigh]

I think you probably said it best. Basketball has really responded well, football not so much. I would've much rather taken Kennesaw over VMI in hindsight. I don't think the SoCon will get back to its power house status until more schools out of conference like JMU and NDSU jump to FBS, OR the larger state schools in the SoCon can sustain a successful FCS program. The Chattanooga's, WCU's, and ETSU's simply have more potential resources to elevate their program. The Big 10 doesn't rely on Northwestern, the SEC doesn't rely on Vanderbilt, and the SoCon shouldn't have to rely on Furman and Wofford to provide quality FCS football.

That's where I disagree. Furman, in the late 90's through the mid 2000's, was an equal to Ga. Southern and App. In 1999, all three finished at the top if the league, with Furman > App > Ga. Southern > Furman, and none losing another league game. That was pretty typical in that era.

Heck, Furman was competitive with Marshall in the late 80's through the 90's when they were in the league.

I do think it's true that it is harder for southeastern FCS teams to compete against Midwestern and western teams that it was 10+ years ago, given the fact that there are so many more southeastern FBS schools now recruiting players who in the past may have gone to a Furman or a Wofford. But on the other hand, JMU is still going very strong, and that's with two new FBS schools, ODU and Liberty, right in their backyard. Wofford and especially Furman can step up and compete at a national level again. I just remember those teams too well.

Now, aside from the absence of App and GSU on the schedule and the competition in recruiting against all these new G5 teams, is there something else that has changed at Furman? Not trying to be rude, but why has Furman dropped off since 2005? And what will it take to get back?

[AstroDin]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

[The Jackal]

I think you probably said it best. Basketball has really responded well, football not so much. I would've much rather taken Kennesaw over VMI in hindsight. I don't think the SoCon will get back to its power house status until more schools out of conference like JMU and NDSU jump to FBS, OR the larger state schools in the SoCon can sustain a successful FCS program. The Chattanooga's, WCU's, and ETSU's simply have more potential resources to elevate their program. The Big 10 doesn't rely on Northwestern, the SEC doesn't rely on Vanderbilt, and the SoCon shouldn't have to rely on Furman and Wofford to provide quality FCS football.

That's where I disagree. Furman, in the late 90's through the mid 2000's, was an equal to Ga. Southern and App. In 1999, all three finished at the top if the league, with Furman > App > Ga. Southern > Furman, and none losing another league game. That was pretty typical in that era.

Heck, Furman was competitive with Marshall in the late 80's through the 90's when they were in the league.

I do think it's true that it is harder for southeastern FCS teams to compete against Midwestern and western teams that it was 10+ years ago, given the fact that there are so many more southeastern FBS schools now recruiting players who in the past may have gone to a Furman or a Wofford. But on the other hand, JMU is still going very strong, and that's with two new FBS schools, ODU and Liberty, right in their backyard. Wofford and especially Furman can step up and compete at a national level again. I just remember those teams too well.

Now, aside from the absence of App and GSU on the schedule and the competition in recruiting against all these new G5 teams, is there something else that has changed at Furman? Not trying to be rude, but why has Furman dropped off since 2005? And what will it take to get back?

I believe you mean that in the late 90s through early 2000s, App was an equal to Furman.

[The Jackal]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

This is just my opinion, but Furman became complacent.

Top down, Furman had become comfortable doing the same things that worked in the 80s and 90s in all facets of the program - recruiting, facilities, systems, coaching, etc. They expected the stuff that had always worked to just keep working. It didn't.

I think Furman was vastly unprepared for the massive changes to the college football landscape. Just as an example, in just our region:

Coastal Carolina - started 2003 and transitioned FBS 2017
Campbell - started program in 2008
ETSU - restarted 2015
Mercer - restarted 2013
Kennesaw State - started 2015
UNC-Ch - started 2013
Georgia State - started 2010
South Alabama - started 2009

Georgia Southern - transitioned FBS 2014
App State - transitioned FBS 2014
Liberty - transitioned FBS 2017

Presbyterian - transitioned FCS 2008
Samford - joined SoCon in 2008 and started to vastly improve
UTC - hired Russ Huesman in 2009, who elevated the Mocs from doormat to nationally relevant program
Elon - joined SoCon in 2003 and went from doormat to playoff contender

So, right around this same time that Furman was happy with "business as usual," the entire regional landscape of "mid-major' football was drastically changing.

Schools that didn't exist, now existed (along with their recruiting machines targeting the same or similar players Furman would be). Schools that existed were transitioning up and adding scholarship players. Schools that had been perennial doormats were making significant investments in coaching and facilities.

All of that resulted, I think, in Furman just getting left behind. No longer was showing up and saying "we're Furman" going to be enough to compete in this environment.

[Furmanoid]

I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

[The Jackal]

I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

We were awful. Between 2012 and 2016, Furman won 3 or 4 games each season with the exception of 2013.

Granted, we won a SoCon title in 2013. However, when you look at the numbers, I think we were simply more lucky than good. Our offense and defense were both bad, but we had an insanely high turnover margin (+12) and a good kicker. Over the last ten seasons, that Furman team is the only one to have a +12 turnover margin.

In my opinion, we were Dakota Dozier away from being really bad. That guy covered up a lot of problems.

[FUBeAR]

this new guy

[Furmanoid]

Sorry I still think of him as new. Gee what’s your problem?

[Affirm]

I also still think of him as new. There are still a lot of things we need him to do, and we generally feel like he hasn't been here long enough to do them. It seems that progress has just begun.
(I do not intend to belittle anyone by noting that it regrettable that some individuals inappropriately try to belittle other people.)