SoCon today

[Affirm]

(Courting/Adding Schools that ARE serious about FCS Football (JaxSt, KSU, APSU, et al), OOC FCS competitive scheduling requirements, etc.)

Seems like a tough sell with current attendance and payouts.

Realism is the SoCon is attracting D2, NAIA and restarted teams.

Affirm posted something similar to this under Season-ending Thoughts 7:42 am on 12/1/2019:
Furman should seek admission into the CAA for all sports. Take Wofford and/or Citadel and/or WCU along with us if we need to or have to.
The next option would be staying in SoCon except for football, moving football to Pioneer Football League.
Another option would be Atlantic 10 for all sports except football, with football being Pioneer Football League.
The last option would be keeping status quo (SoCon).

[The Jackal]

(Courting/Adding Schools that ARE serious about FCS Football (JaxSt, KSU, APSU, et al), OOC FCS competitive scheduling requirements, etc.)

Seems like a tough sell with current attendance and payouts.

Realism is the SoCon is attracting D2, NAIA and restarted teams.

I bet a few of those teams would jump at the ability to join the SoCon. You think the Big South is showing long term sustainability? Their best team is from New Jersey.

Again, it isn't coincidence that some of Furman's attendance figures started to slip when the two biggest schools with the two biggest fanbases left the conference. Looking at historic trends, Furman's attendance is down slightly, but not massively, from most of their non-App/GSU games over the last 15-20 years.

[sluggo]

Every football team in history that left the SoCon did better after leaving.

Just saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_ ... p_timeline

[Davemeister]

Every football team in history that left the SoCon did better after leaving.

Just saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_ ... p_timeline

Except ETSU and VMI.

[fufanatic]

I believe someone made a comment over the last few days that they believe there are players on the roster that wouldn't have been D1 or at least at Furman 15-20 years ago. I'm curious if anyone that follows recruiting thinks that might be true (obviously not calling out specific players).

I ask because I'm still trying to figure out the main difference in the product the SoCon teams are putting on the field and what the Western schools are. I would have to think that the HS talent in the SoCon footprint (SC, Georgia, Alabama, Tenn, NC, Va.) is vastly superior to the talent from the Dakotas, Montana, Minnesota, Colorado, etc. Is it truly that the amount of new football programs over the last decade far exceeds the population growth that the region has seen? And that say 10 players that all might have gone to Furman in 1990 are now being split up among 4-5 different schools? And because of that we are now having to recruit some players to fill out the roster that might have gone to a PC or Newberry or Davidson in 1990?

In that case, do we think a combined roster of the current SoCon schools (or Furman and select schools that have been created in the last decade) would beat an NDSU or JMU? Is the answer that we need to expand our recruiting footprint, which would cost a lot more money? I'm just trying to think how the league is going to dig itself out of this mess. I really think that the talent Furman has and is bringing in could translate to being more competitive nationally, but I guess we will see.

[The Jackal]

Every football team in history that left the SoCon did better after leaving.

Just saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_ ... p_timeline

Elon went 33-36 their last six years in the SoCon.

They've gone 26-42 their first six years in the CAA.

Elon has never won a playoff game. They've only been to the post season 3 times in 20 years of FCS football.

In the last 12 years, the Phoenix have reached eight wins three times (only once while in the CAA). Furman has reached eight wins two of the last three seasons.

[Jasper]

I believe someone made a comment over the last few days that they believe there are players on the roster that wouldn't have been D1 or at least at Furman 15-20 years ago. I'm curious if anyone that follows recruiting thinks that might be true (obviously not calling out specific players).

I ask because I'm still trying to figure out the main difference in the product the SoCon teams are putting on the field and what the Western schools are. I would have to think that the HS talent in the SoCon footprint (SC, Georgia, Alabama, Tenn, NC, Va.) is vastly superior to the talent from the Dakotas, Montana, Minnesota, Colorado, etc. Is it truly that the amount of new football programs over the last decade far exceeds the population growth that the region has seen? And that say 10 players that all might have gone to Furman in 1990 are now being split up among 4-5 different schools? And because of that we are now having to recruit some players to fill out the roster that might have gone to a PC or Newberry or Davidson in 1990?

In that case, do we think a combined roster of the current SoCon schools (or Furman and select schools that have been created in the last decade) would beat an NDSU or JMU? Is the answer that we need to expand our recruiting footprint, which would cost a lot more money? I'm just trying to think how the league is going to dig itself out of this mess. I really think that the talent Furman has and is bringing in could translate to being more competitive nationally, but I guess we will see.

That is an excellent and fair question. I don't purport to have THE answer and I don't think there is one answer. However, I think our main problem is in our high academic requirements for admission and continuation. Even if a friendly admissions office were to lower academic standards to accommodate players, there is no place to hide in a small liberal arts school. We don't have any of these Playground Management majors that don't require core courses. All the players that I know are majoring in computer science, history and political science and they work their butts off during the season. So, One - our recruiting is limited to those who can carry a real academic load. That alone puts a real dent in the prospective pool. Secondly, most of those western FCS schools are loaded with transfers. We just got whupped by a school with some real good transfers from Power 5 schools. Once again, we cannot compete for a transfer unless he is coming from a highly rated school AND has a good academic record. The only places from which we usually get a few transfers are the service academies. We are playing some large state schools with public funding and much lower academic standards. The only way I can think of to level the playing field is with a league like the Patriot league. No more than 15 total scholarships for the team and they all have similar academics and they monitor it like the Ivies do. Those are my thoughts. I think we recruit really well with the restrictions we have. I love the fact that they are a group of really good kids who are also true student athletes. I suspect that their championship days lay ahead of them in the big game of life and not in Frisco, Texas.

[Paul C]

Jasper is spot on.

Our academic restrictions are tough to overcome....and just to be VERY CLEAR, Wofford takes kids every year that we have a "DNR" (Do Not Recruit) given by Admissions. And it hurts us in our ability to take transfers.

Is this as fatal as Jasper implies above? No I don't think so, but it forces us to run the program well and play the long game. We need to have a high batting average in recruiting and be a "development program"....that is bring kids in, redshirt them, get them some seasoning, and THEN expect them to contribute. NO QUICK FIXES, and mistakes can compound quickly. We are still feeling the effects of some recruiting mistakes by the former Admin even after 3 years of Clay. Case in point is OL. The former staff got behind the curve and then tried to make up for quality with quantity. This then handcuffed the current staff to only a very limited number of OL in his first classes.

Clay and his team can do it but it's tough

[tim]

I wouldn't lower academic requirements much, but we should be able sign anybody Wofford does, that wouldn't hurt.

[sluggo]

Elon went 33-36 their last six years in the SoCon.

They've gone 26-42 their first six years in the CAA.

Elon has never won a playoff game. They've only been to the post season 3 times in 20 years of FCS football.

In the last 12 years, the Phoenix have reached eight wins three times (only once while in the CAA). Furman has reached eight wins two of the last three seasons.

Except ETSU and VMI.

I fixed it :

Every football team in history that MATTERED and left the SoCon did better after leaving.

[fufanatic]

Jasper is spot on.

Our academic restrictions are tough to overcome....and just to be VERY CLEAR, Wofford takes kids every year that we have a "DNR" (Do Not Recruit) given by Admissions. And it hurts us in our ability to take transfers.

Is this as fatal as Jasper implies above? No I don't think so, but it forces us to run the program well and play the long game. We need to have a high batting average in recruiting and be a "development program"....that is bring kids in, redshirt them, get them some seasoning, and THEN expect them to contribute. NO QUICK FIXES, and mistakes can compound quickly. We are still feeling the effects of some recruiting mistakes by the former Admin even after 3 years of Clay. Case in point is OL. The former staff got behind the curve and then tried to make up for quality with quantity. This then handcuffed the current staff to only a very limited number of OL in his first classes.

Clay and his team can do it but it's tough

Paul, thanks for this. Maybe you can offer further insight. Are Furman's admissions tougher than they were in the 80s and/or early to mid 2000s? If so, then that makes sense the somewhat extreme decline in the program when you couple that info with the fact that there are a whole bunch of programs in 2019 that didn't exist in the 80s or 2000s, thus making recruiting even harder than it was during the heyday of Paladin football. Which to your point, makes not missing on recruits even more important.

[gman]

Jasper is spot on.

Our academic restrictions are tough to overcome....and just to be VERY CLEAR, Wofford takes kids every year that we have a "DNR" (Do Not Recruit) given by Admissions. And it hurts us in our ability to take transfers.

Is this as fatal as Jasper implies above? No I don't think so, but it forces us to run the program well and play the long game. We need to have a high batting average in recruiting and be a "development program"....that is bring kids in, redshirt them, get them some seasoning, and THEN expect them to contribute. NO QUICK FIXES, and mistakes can compound quickly. We are still feeling the effects of some recruiting mistakes by the former Admin even after 3 years of Clay. Case in point is OL. The former staff got behind the curve and then tried to make up for quality with quantity. This then handcuffed the current staff to only a very limited number of OL in his first classes.

Clay and his team can do it but it's tough

Clay is our last chance to get it done. If he can’t, no one can, and it will not be his fault.

[FurmAlum]

I think Clay can and will get it done!

As for the admissions standards, I don't know about the 80's and 90's, but I know they are much higher now than they were in the 70's, or I wouldn't be a Furman Grad. HaHa.

When my daughter applied in 2007, she made a 30 on the ACT and Dr. Shi told me that was a little below average. I said s***. She got in and did graduate. She also said Med school was easier than Furman. I don't think the admission standards should be lowered. Heck, that's what makes Furman Furman. And not Waffart. I do think the athletes should get the benefit of the doubt, if there is any doubt.

[The Jackal]

Jasper is spot on.

Our academic restrictions are tough to overcome....and just to be VERY CLEAR, Wofford takes kids every year that we have a "DNR" (Do Not Recruit) given by Admissions. And it hurts us in our ability to take transfers.

Is this as fatal as Jasper implies above? No I don't think so, but it forces us to run the program well and play the long game. We need to have a high batting average in recruiting and be a "development program"....that is bring kids in, redshirt them, get them some seasoning, and THEN expect them to contribute. NO QUICK FIXES, and mistakes can compound quickly. We are still feeling the effects of some recruiting mistakes by the former Admin even after 3 years of Clay. Case in point is OL. The former staff got behind the curve and then tried to make up for quality with quantity. This then handcuffed the current staff to only a very limited number of OL in his first classes.

Clay and his team can do it but it's tough

I think your point about the OL is a good one.

The OL is an area that just takes time to develop. We really haven't seen what that looks like as a finished product under Hendrix - most of the guys that play the majority of snaps are still Fowler recruits.

Transitioning from high school to college is a little more complicated with linemen than at other positions.

[Davemeister]

Furman won 8 football games this season. Think about how many schools across the land - playing at ANY level - would love to have that record.

We are not yet where we want to be, but by most standards Clay IS getting it done.