Delaware moving to FBS.
Next.
Who’s it gonna be?
Who are the most likely from the SoCon?
From the CAA?
Will SoCon and/or CAA soon be needing to try to add Gardner-Webb and/or Charleston Southern?
Who’s it gonna be?
Who are the most likely from the SoCon?
From the CAA?
Will SoCon and/or CAA soon be needing to try to add Gardner-Webb and/or Charleston Southern?
Last edited by Affirm on Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have a dream of Richmond, W&M, Elon, and possibly NC A&T joining the SoCon in football but, minus a few rumors, there hasn't been much chatter.
So, I checked out their message boards to see what the conversation of Delaware leaving the fcs looks like. Most of these conversations were focused on the direction of the CAA, fcs football, etc.
Many of Elon's and Richmond's fans are entertaining joining the SoCon and think regardless of what happens Elon, Richmond, and W&M need to stick together.
While joining the SoCon is mentioned by a few W&M fans, most of their debate is whether they should go to the fbs or drop scholarships and compete with more like minded academic institutions. Also, interestingly, they don't have a habit of bringing up Elon and Richmond.
NC A&T fans don't seem to think Delaware's departure is worth discussing, probably because they have no history of playing Delaware or in the SoCon.
I get it, the fans that like the status quo have no reason to talk and my guess is this is a silent majority situation. Also, for the SoCon's part, this could disproportionately increase travel costs for little, if any benefit, for certain institutions. I also don't understand the complexities of how this works when accounting for other sports.
So, I checked out their message boards to see what the conversation of Delaware leaving the fcs looks like. Most of these conversations were focused on the direction of the CAA, fcs football, etc.
Many of Elon's and Richmond's fans are entertaining joining the SoCon and think regardless of what happens Elon, Richmond, and W&M need to stick together.
While joining the SoCon is mentioned by a few W&M fans, most of their debate is whether they should go to the fbs or drop scholarships and compete with more like minded academic institutions. Also, interestingly, they don't have a habit of bringing up Elon and Richmond.
NC A&T fans don't seem to think Delaware's departure is worth discussing, probably because they have no history of playing Delaware or in the SoCon.
I get it, the fans that like the status quo have no reason to talk and my guess is this is a silent majority situation. Also, for the SoCon's part, this could disproportionately increase travel costs for little, if any benefit, for certain institutions. I also don't understand the complexities of how this works when accounting for other sports.
I've seen several rumors on Twitter (or X - whatever it is now) about potential SoCon expansion. I've also seen some things about both Chattanooga and Furman having (or being considered for) C-USA invites.
If the SoCon were to expand, I think Austin Peay and Eastern Kentucky would be who Chattanooga fans would want the most.
If the SoCon were to expand, I think Austin Peay and Eastern Kentucky would be who Chattanooga fans would want the most.
Looks to FUBeAR that the powers-that-be @ UTC & ETSU are kicking and screaming to “keep up with the Jones” and do what everyone else has done / is doing…EXPAND or they’ll take their programs and go, um, home!
How’s that working out for the CAA right now.
They are also pointing fingers (true or not) at Furman and Wofford portraying “the privates” (and really not including Mercer & Samford…cuz they’re bigger maybe?) as Scarlett O’Hara … fiddle-Dee-Dee / tomorrow is another day…etc.
Everyone in Athletics is uncertain and nervous right now. Those 2 want to react and do something for the sake of doing something…anything. And, they’ve decided it’s time to be noisy about it...hoping to get WCU on board as well.
Now may be a great time to expand. Or, maybe it’s not. FUBeAR don’t pretend to know. FUBeAR does appreciate the old bull who wants to WALK down the hill and make love to ALL of the cows vs. the young bull that wants to run down the hill and make love to 1 of them. Papa FUBeAR told FUBeAR that joke/axiom a long time ago. It’s sage wisdom.
Hey - if the Mocs, Bucs, and Cats wanna depart the SoCon, don’t let the door hit ya …hope you make a lotta nice friends out there… FUBeAR ain’t never for 1 day missed Marsha, Appy, GaSou, E*Loan, or any others…and he won’t miss those 3.
That said … love to get Richmond and W&M back…would love A&T…good with Campbell…OK with Gardner Webb, OK with ChuckSouth (CIT ain’t lettin’ that happen).
FUBeAR’s take - let ‘em all squabble - they get paid enough to worry about that. If it ain’t directly about a Football game or games, FUBeAR ain’t really studyin’ it these days.
How’s that working out for the CAA right now.
They are also pointing fingers (true or not) at Furman and Wofford portraying “the privates” (and really not including Mercer & Samford…cuz they’re bigger maybe?) as Scarlett O’Hara … fiddle-Dee-Dee / tomorrow is another day…etc.
Everyone in Athletics is uncertain and nervous right now. Those 2 want to react and do something for the sake of doing something…anything. And, they’ve decided it’s time to be noisy about it...hoping to get WCU on board as well.
Now may be a great time to expand. Or, maybe it’s not. FUBeAR don’t pretend to know. FUBeAR does appreciate the old bull who wants to WALK down the hill and make love to ALL of the cows vs. the young bull that wants to run down the hill and make love to 1 of them. Papa FUBeAR told FUBeAR that joke/axiom a long time ago. It’s sage wisdom.
Hey - if the Mocs, Bucs, and Cats wanna depart the SoCon, don’t let the door hit ya …hope you make a lotta nice friends out there… FUBeAR ain’t never for 1 day missed Marsha, Appy, GaSou, E*Loan, or any others…and he won’t miss those 3.
That said … love to get Richmond and W&M back…would love A&T…good with Campbell…OK with Gardner Webb, OK with ChuckSouth (CIT ain’t lettin’ that happen).
FUBeAR’s take - let ‘em all squabble - they get paid enough to worry about that. If it ain’t directly about a Football game or games, FUBeAR ain’t really studyin’ it these days.
NCAA MANUAL
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
Honestly, I'm not sure if the SoCon expanding is advantageous or not(to the Mocs or any/all of the current schools). I will say if the SoCon wants some schools currently in the CAA - now may be as good of opportunity as they'll get. It appears that some of the CAA schools such as Richmond and W&M are not exactly thrilled with the current direction of the CAA. I also imagine that the SoCon could have any UAC, OVC, or Big South team it wants as I'm sure any of them would jump at an invite.
As someone who's supported looking at other conference options like the OVC in 2007 (b/c we just couldn't compete in the SoCon at that time) and A-Sun in ~2021 )due to potential rivalries with JSU, KSU, EKU), I firmly believe the SoCon is the best FCS conference for the Mocs at this time as despite the SoCon having some issues (as I'm sure all conferences do) all the other options are in some stage of being a dumpster fire.
The other rumor I've heard on X about either UTC or/and Furman going C-USA opens up a whole list of questions. Is it worth it to go from the 3rd best FCS Conference to the worst FBS conference? I can't help but imagine that the $7M investment (plus an additional 44 scholarships) would be a showstopper for either school.
As someone who's supported looking at other conference options like the OVC in 2007 (b/c we just couldn't compete in the SoCon at that time) and A-Sun in ~2021 )due to potential rivalries with JSU, KSU, EKU), I firmly believe the SoCon is the best FCS conference for the Mocs at this time as despite the SoCon having some issues (as I'm sure all conferences do) all the other options are in some stage of being a dumpster fire.
The other rumor I've heard on X about either UTC or/and Furman going C-USA opens up a whole list of questions. Is it worth it to go from the 3rd best FCS Conference to the worst FBS conference? I can't help but imagine that the $7M investment (plus an additional 44 scholarships) would be a showstopper for either school.
FUBeAR believes Furman will join the SEC long before we consider joining the C-USA ... but that's just FUBeAR's opinion.Mocs123 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:22 pmHonestly, I'm not sure if the SoCon expanding is advantageous or not(to the Mocs or any/all of the current schools). I will say if the SoCon wants some schools currently in the CAA - now may be as good of opportunity as they'll get. It appears that some of the CAA schools such as Richmond and W&M are not exactly thrilled with the current direction of the CAA. I also imagine that the SoCon could have any UAC, OVC, or Big South team it wants as I'm sure any of them would jump at an invite.
As someone who's supported looking at other conference options like the OVC in 2007 (b/c we just couldn't compete in the SoCon at that time) and A-Sun in ~2021 )due to potential rivalries with JSU, KSU, EKU), I firmly believe the SoCon is the best FCS conference for the Mocs at this time as despite the SoCon having some issues (as I'm sure all conferences do) all the other options are in some stage of being a dumpster fire.
The other rumor I've heard on X about either UTC or/and Furman going C-USA opens up a whole list of questions. Is it worth it to go from the 3rd best FCS Conference to the worst FBS conference? I can't help but imagine that the $7M investment (plus an additional 44 scholarships) would be a showstopper for either school.
NCAA MANUAL
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
Since the ETSU AD’s comments have been alluded to here, I’ll ask the question here.
What’s really the biggest issue schools like ETSU and UTC have with the SoCon currently? The 3 “archaic rules” issues Gene Henley brought up in a recent article were…
1. The SoCon does not allow in conference transfers unless the athlete has graduated. I don’t see this as a HUGE hang up for the 3 schools mentioned.
2. The SoCon is in a dangerous spot right if one team were to leave (especially the womens sports) and is generally not as respected as it should/could be. I understand this and is partly why I’m in favor of expanding, but I would this this would be a concern for all schools, not just those 3
3. Limited number of athletes that can be compensated (28) and capped dollar amount ($2000) on additional cost of attendance payments that can be made by the school. To me, THIS is the real issue. ETSU and UTC (and probably WCU) likely have higher “full cost of attendance” than Furman and Wofford, so they could pay up to $6900 at ETSU to cover said COA. I’m not sure what Furman’s is but based on an article I found on this references BC’s issues with the COA as a private institution, and I would guess is similar to FU, Wofford, and maybe a couple other schools. These bigger schools with lower tuition want to be able to use the COA as a selling point to recruits and the SoCon bylaws won’t let them which they view as a disadvantage when recruiting against schools like WKU and CofC (schools mentioned by ETAU AD).
Gene Henley made the…interesting…comparison on the ETSU podcast (Jay and Keith show) that UTC and ETSU were the spouse in a long marriage that decides it’s going to get in shape (spend more money on athletics) and the private schools are the spouse that just wants to sit on the couch and watch Netflix (status quo), and ETSU and UTC are wondering if they should stick it out or go. The issue is for them, there isn’t a great landing spot for them now. And with how crazy all this conference/P4 subdivision split could get in the near future, there is no guarantee making a move to a good spot now, would still be a good spot in the next year or two. See the A-Sun as mentioned by Mocs123.
All of that to say, I do think the SoCon should at least consider modifying the COA issues and make a play at the CAA schools they want in addition to a school more west for UTC, ETSU, and Samford (AP, EKU, TTU, UTM, etc). Not sure they are going to get another shot like this in the near future with the supposed discord between schools like W&M and Richmond. I feel like increasing the number of students who can get the COA payment and maybe going with an average of the schools COA amount could be a good compromise, but I have no idea just how much additional money that would cost Furman.
I would love to hear JD address this since the ETSU guy has gone public but I doubt that will happen. Off season meetings should be interesting for sure.
What’s really the biggest issue schools like ETSU and UTC have with the SoCon currently? The 3 “archaic rules” issues Gene Henley brought up in a recent article were…
1. The SoCon does not allow in conference transfers unless the athlete has graduated. I don’t see this as a HUGE hang up for the 3 schools mentioned.
2. The SoCon is in a dangerous spot right if one team were to leave (especially the womens sports) and is generally not as respected as it should/could be. I understand this and is partly why I’m in favor of expanding, but I would this this would be a concern for all schools, not just those 3
3. Limited number of athletes that can be compensated (28) and capped dollar amount ($2000) on additional cost of attendance payments that can be made by the school. To me, THIS is the real issue. ETSU and UTC (and probably WCU) likely have higher “full cost of attendance” than Furman and Wofford, so they could pay up to $6900 at ETSU to cover said COA. I’m not sure what Furman’s is but based on an article I found on this references BC’s issues with the COA as a private institution, and I would guess is similar to FU, Wofford, and maybe a couple other schools. These bigger schools with lower tuition want to be able to use the COA as a selling point to recruits and the SoCon bylaws won’t let them which they view as a disadvantage when recruiting against schools like WKU and CofC (schools mentioned by ETAU AD).
Gene Henley made the…interesting…comparison on the ETSU podcast (Jay and Keith show) that UTC and ETSU were the spouse in a long marriage that decides it’s going to get in shape (spend more money on athletics) and the private schools are the spouse that just wants to sit on the couch and watch Netflix (status quo), and ETSU and UTC are wondering if they should stick it out or go. The issue is for them, there isn’t a great landing spot for them now. And with how crazy all this conference/P4 subdivision split could get in the near future, there is no guarantee making a move to a good spot now, would still be a good spot in the next year or two. See the A-Sun as mentioned by Mocs123.
All of that to say, I do think the SoCon should at least consider modifying the COA issues and make a play at the CAA schools they want in addition to a school more west for UTC, ETSU, and Samford (AP, EKU, TTU, UTM, etc). Not sure they are going to get another shot like this in the near future with the supposed discord between schools like W&M and Richmond. I feel like increasing the number of students who can get the COA payment and maybe going with an average of the schools COA amount could be a good compromise, but I have no idea just how much additional money that would cost Furman.
I would love to hear JD address this since the ETSU guy has gone public but I doubt that will happen. Off season meetings should be interesting for sure.
The only schools I would be interested in are:
Richmond (football)
William & Mary (football and basketball)
Villanova (football)
Charleston (basketball)
If we took all 4 we would be at 12 basketball schools and 12 football schools...
Richmond (football)
William & Mary (football and basketball)
Villanova (football)
Charleston (basketball)
If we took all 4 we would be at 12 basketball schools and 12 football schools...
What would you suggest for an operational model - all-in, or divisional (north, south, e.g.) - given travel constraints, etc. - ?
From FUBeAR's own experience with, and from what FUBeAR has heard from, if VPADJD is asked a question, he will give an honest answer. Now, VPADJD may not vomit out every atom of excrement associated with that answer, as the ETSU goof did in that interview, while he was blowing snot and phlegm all over the microphone, but VPADJD will provide a reasonable answer to any question asked.
FUBeAR, though he wishes he weren't, is curious about the COA Calculation. What he know is that this calculation is part of gub-mint required rigamarol associated with financial aid - for all students, not just athletes - and that each school's annual calculation of COA is different. It seems that there would be a list of the results of these calculations somewhere, but FUBeAR hasn't been able to unearth it.
FUBeAR doesn't, necessarily, like to accept things people utter as the gospel, particularly when the speaker sounds as, um, challenged, as that ETSU did. FUBeAR believes that's part of critical thinking. Some call it cynicism. Mrs. FUBeAR says it's just cuz FUBeAR is an a-hole.
So, short of finding a list, someone at least 'splain to FUBeAR why COA would be higher @ ETSU in Johnson City, TN than it is @ FU in GVL. FUBeAR knows the cost of family visiting is factored into it somehow, which includes hotel rooms. That, alone, ought to send FU's COA thru the roof. Anyway - prolly some smart peeps out there who can point FUBeAR to a list or tell him more about that calculation. Right now - FUBeAR ain't fully buyin' that claim about Chatty and ETSU being high-dollar compared to FU.
FUBeAR, though he wishes he weren't, is curious about the COA Calculation. What he know is that this calculation is part of gub-mint required rigamarol associated with financial aid - for all students, not just athletes - and that each school's annual calculation of COA is different. It seems that there would be a list of the results of these calculations somewhere, but FUBeAR hasn't been able to unearth it.
FUBeAR doesn't, necessarily, like to accept things people utter as the gospel, particularly when the speaker sounds as, um, challenged, as that ETSU did. FUBeAR believes that's part of critical thinking. Some call it cynicism. Mrs. FUBeAR says it's just cuz FUBeAR is an a-hole.
So, short of finding a list, someone at least 'splain to FUBeAR why COA would be higher @ ETSU in Johnson City, TN than it is @ FU in GVL. FUBeAR knows the cost of family visiting is factored into it somehow, which includes hotel rooms. That, alone, ought to send FU's COA thru the roof. Anyway - prolly some smart peeps out there who can point FUBeAR to a list or tell him more about that calculation. Right now - FUBeAR ain't fully buyin' that claim about Chatty and ETSU being high-dollar compared to FU.
Last edited by FUBeAR on Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
NCAA MANUAL
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
Seems it could be divisional for Football but all-in for Basketball, I don't 'think' any D1 Basketball leagues are in divisions anymore...
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/standings