I AM SICK - Pegues

[PacoTisdale]

No furman was not exploiting Pegues that’s silly. That doesn’t also mean that it makes sense to not allow players to make money off their own name and likeness. Just because he gets a scholarship to a good school does not mean they should be able to control him in a way that he can’t make money off his own name. It’s ironic the person who said “I had to work 45 hours a week” well you would’ve also been allowed to be in a local commercial or be sponsored by a brand. Why should JP not be allowed the same? Cause he plays basketball and is on scholarship? Makes no sense.

[PacoTisdale]

As far as the NIL…it beats…the universities exploiting the players…

So, Furman University has been “exploiting” JP Pegues by providing him with a ~$300k education, plus whatever additional benefits he was receiving, as part of Furman’s nefarious scheme to lose money by sponsoring an NCAA D1 Athletics Program?

Typical outdated thinking toward “student athletes”:

What about their free college ride, aren’t they grateful just to have that?

Typical non-response to a relevant question.

There was no “thinking” expressed. There was no commentary on anyone’s FEELINGS - such as gratitude/gratefulness.

Your ‘restatement’ of FUBeAR’s question is not even remotely related to the question FUBeAR actually asked.

Let’s try again…with some timeless thinking (actually facts - not “thinking” or FEELINGS) expressed.

1) No more than about 50 (out of over 1,000) intercollegiate athletics programs in the US are currently profitable.

2) Furman University VPAD Jason Donnelly clearly stated this week in his “Ask the AD” conversation with Dan Scott that Furman is NOT one of those 50 programs.

3) FUBeAR is not privy to the financial statements, but he’s willing to conjecture that no single sport at Furman - including Football & Men’s Basketball - operates profitably. In other words, Furman loses money on each and every sport it sponsors. There is no direct financial benefit which accrues to Furman University (which FUBeAR believes is structured as a private corporation) from sponsoring any sport or even having an athletics program at all.

4) FUBeAR defers arguing the question of whether or not “players” that have been or are associated with those ~50 programs, that are or have been profitable, are being or have been exploited. It is an interesting question and one worthy of hearty debate, but it is well outside the scope of the context of this thread and forum.

5) You stated that “players” are “exploited” in the context of a discussion around Furman Basketball Player JP Pegues’ apparent decision to enter the transfer portal, i.e., to separate himself from Furman’s Athletics program. The implication a reasonable person may infer from your comment is that JP Pegues has been “exploited” by Furman University.

6) The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines “exploitation” as follows: To exploit someone is to take unfair advantage of them. It is to use another person’s vulnerability for one’s own benefit.


So, to restate and better state FUBeAR’s original question…

Is it your contention that Furman University has been taking unfair advantage of JP Pegues’ vulnerability - while providing him with a ~$300k education, plus whatever additional benefits he was receiving - as part of Furman’s plan to derive the ‘benefit’ of losing money via sponsoring an intercollegiate Men’s Basketball Team?

If so, how so?

How or why is or has Mr. Pegues, specifically, been “vulnerable?”

How has Furman University capitalized upon or specifically taken advantage of Mr. Pegues’ specific vulnerability to benefit Furman University?

What is the real benefit (over and above associated costs and fair market value of goods and/or services provided by Furman to Mr. Pegues) that Furman University has derived from its association or relationship with Mr. Pegues, exclusively? NOTE: “Exclusively” is an important part of that question. “Exclusively” strips away the additive values of Coaches, Trainers, Teammates, and ALL Athletics and Academic Support Staff provided by Furman University. We must remove all of that to properly assess the value of the unique benefit that Mr. Pegues INDEPENDENTLY provided to Furman University in order to assess if he has been, in fact, “exploited” by Furman University and to what level that exploitation has benefited Furman.


Feel free to respond with an intelligent legitimate answer to the ACTUALLY STATED question(s) or with continued typical keyboard warrior snark. FUBeAR don’t care. He enjoys both - to varying degrees.

What does furman not being profitable on basketball or athletics have to do with JP being able to make money signing an autograph or being sponsored by a company? That’s in no way a justification for not allowing a player to make money off their own name. Should be a free market the way it is now just like the rest of the world works

[FUBeAR]

As far as the NIL…it beats…the universities exploiting the players…

So, Furman University has been “exploiting” JP Pegues by providing him with a ~$300k education, plus whatever additional benefits he was receiving, as part of Furman’s nefarious scheme to lose money by sponsoring an NCAA D1 Athletics Program?

Typical outdated thinking toward “student athletes”:

What about their free college ride, aren’t they grateful just to have that?

Typical non-response to a relevant question.

There was no “thinking” expressed. There was no commentary on anyone’s FEELINGS - such as gratitude/gratefulness.

Your ‘restatement’ of FUBeAR’s question is not even remotely related to the question FUBeAR actually asked.

Let’s try again…with some timeless thinking (actually facts - not “thinking” or FEELINGS) expressed.

1) No more than about 50 (out of over 1,000) intercollegiate athletics programs in the US are currently profitable.

2) Furman University VPAD Jason Donnelly clearly stated this week in his “Ask the AD” conversation with Dan Scott that Furman is NOT one of those 50 programs.

3) FUBeAR is not privy to the financial statements, but he’s willing to conjecture that no single sport at Furman - including Football & Men’s Basketball - operates profitably. In other words, Furman loses money on each and every sport it sponsors. There is no direct financial benefit which accrues to Furman University (which FUBeAR believes is structured as a private corporation) from sponsoring any sport or even having an athletics program at all.

4) FUBeAR defers arguing the question of whether or not “players” that have been or are associated with those ~50 programs, that are or have been profitable, are being or have been exploited. It is an interesting question and one worthy of hearty debate, but it is well outside the scope of the context of this thread and forum.

5) You stated that “players” are “exploited” in the context of a discussion around Furman Basketball Player JP Pegues’ apparent decision to enter the transfer portal, i.e., to separate himself from Furman’s Athletics program. The implication a reasonable person may infer from your comment is that JP Pegues has been “exploited” by Furman University.

6) The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy defines “exploitation” as follows: To exploit someone is to take unfair advantage of them. It is to use another person’s vulnerability for one’s own benefit.


So, to restate and better state FUBeAR’s original question…

Is it your contention that Furman University has been taking unfair advantage of JP Pegues’ vulnerability - while providing him with a ~$300k education, plus whatever additional benefits he was receiving - as part of Furman’s plan to derive the ‘benefit’ of losing money via sponsoring an intercollegiate Men’s Basketball Team?

If so, how so?

How or why is or has Mr. Pegues, specifically, been “vulnerable?”

How has Furman University capitalized upon or specifically taken advantage of Mr. Pegues’ specific vulnerability to benefit Furman University?

What is the real benefit (over and above associated costs and fair market value of goods and/or services provided by Furman to Mr. Pegues) that Furman University has derived from its association or relationship with Mr. Pegues, exclusively? NOTE: “Exclusively” is an important part of that question. “Exclusively” strips away the additive values of Coaches, Trainers, Teammates, and ALL Athletics and Academic Support Staff provided by Furman University. We must remove all of that to properly assess the value of the unique benefit that Mr. Pegues INDEPENDENTLY provided to Furman University in order to assess if he has been, in fact, “exploited” by Furman University and to what level that exploitation has benefited Furman.


Feel free to respond with an intelligent legitimate answer to the ACTUALLY STATED question(s) or with continued typical keyboard warrior snark. FUBeAR don’t care. He enjoys both - to varying degrees.

What does furman not being profitable on basketball or athletics have to do with JP being able to make money signing an autograph or being sponsored by a company? That’s in no way a justification for not allowing a player to make money off their own name. Should be a free market the way it is now just like the rest of the world works

The term FUBeAR originally commented upon was “exploited.”

FUBeAR inferred that the quoted original poster had strongly implied that Furman University (as an entity) has and has been exploiting Mr. Pegues by Furman University not paying him and/or not paying him enough, either directly or indirectly, via a sham system labeled with such terms as “Collective” and “NIL,” but in fact is or would be nothing more than a “Boosters Pay Players to ‘come & play’ and ‘stay and play’” program…as is widely done now in Collegiate Athletics.

FUBeAR 100% agrees with “allowing a player to make money off their own name.” NCAA rules prohibiting such, in the past, were stupid. Universities, that were running highly profitable athletics teams and departments, using the NCAA (which is, essentially, a ‘shell company’ collectively owned by those Universities) as their “not me” shields, were guilty of taking unfair advantage of their players’ vulnerabilities (caused by those rules) to the benefit of those Universities. That is exploitation.

Why does profitability matter in the argument that FUBeAR made, which was not the argument you cited (more on this in the next paragraphs)? Georgia made millions licensing the selling of #34 jerseys with “Walker” on the back. FUBeAR highly doubts Furman ever made any profits licensing the sale of #27 jerseys with “Jennings” on the back. Same vulnerability, but no benefit. Both have to be present for such to be defined as exploitation. Furman, FUBeAR believes, does not (and never has) attain (attained) any direct financial benefit from sponsoring any single athletic Team, an athletics program overall, nor from ‘trading in’ the name, image, and likeness of any individual student athlete. Thus, Furman, has not & never has been guilty of exploiting student athletes, within the context of this discussion.

Now, to the again erroneously restated argument you think / thought FUBeAR was making. As stated earlier in this post - FUBeAR 100% agrees with “allowing a player to make money off their own name.” Now, FUBeAR will ask you a question….

What does “…being able to make money signing an autograph or being sponsored by a company…” have to do with being induced to attend and/or to remain affiliated with a school’s athletics program as a result of the amount of compensation provided via a “Collective” from the Boosters of that school?

[Furmanoid]

No furman was not exploiting Pegues that’s silly. That doesn’t also mean that it makes sense to not allow players to make money off their own name and likeness. Just because he gets a scholarship to a good school does not mean they should be able to control him in a way that he can’t make money off his own name. It’s ironic the person who said “I had to work 45 hours a week” well you would’ve also been allowed to be in a local commercial or be sponsored by a brand. Why should JP not be allowed the same? Cause he plays basketball and is on scholarship? Makes no sense.

Except the making money off their own name part has turned out to be bogus. Virtually nobody is being paid market value for use of their name. Their names have no value because virtually nobody knows who they are. They’re being paid to play by boosters who pretend they’re paying for promotions/advertising etc. If you’re ok with that fine, but let’s drop the “making money off their own NIL” nonsense.